[00:00:00] James Christiansen: I mean, I think you have to be an innovator to be a leader. You have to keep challenging the status quo. You have to keep challenging yesterday's thoughts. That's what we really did when we sat down as a team started listening to our colleagues and taking that input along with their own cost to really develop out these principles, challenging the way we've been doing things and really thinking about, how does this digitalization is changing us and our organization.
[00:00:34] Producer:Hello, and welcome to security visionaries hosted by Jason Clark, chief security officer and chief strategy officer at Netskope. You just heard from James Christianson, the vice president, chief information security officer at Netskope on this show. You'll hear from world-class practitioners and thought leaders like James on how they stay on top of the game in networking and cloud security. You're about to listen to the second half of a two-part discussion on the principles of security transformation. In this half, Jason and Erick are joined by colleagues, James Christianson, the Vice President, Chief Information Security Officer at Netskope. James Robinson, deputy chief information security officer at Netskope and Lamont Orange, Chief Information Security Officer at Netskope. The following discussion and the security visionaries podcast are part of the security transformation playbook, a set of new resources from Netskope and some of the industry's most forward thinking leaders examining the most important issues in security today, before we dive in, here's a brief word from our sponsors.
[00:01:38] Sponsor: The Security Visionaries podcast is powered by the team at Netskope. Netskope is the SASE leader. Offering everything you need to provide a fast data centric and cloud smart user experience at the speed of business today. Learn more at netskope.com
[00:01:57] Producer: without further ado, please enjoy episode two of security visionaries with your host, Jason Clark.
[00:02:05] Jason Clark: In the last episode, Erick and I talked about the genesis for the security transformation project and explained that there are several principles for the future that we should work on, right. 10 principles that we're going to do a deep dive on specifically today. And so I'm joined first by Erick, Rudiak, Erick, how are you?
[00:02:24] Erickk Rudiak: Hi Jason. Glad to be back. Thank you so much for having me on.
[00:02:29] Jason Clark: Happy to have you. And Lamont Orange.
[00:02:31] Lamont Orange: Hey Jason, thanks for having me on the show. I look forward to the conversation.
[00:02:36] Jason Clark: And James Robinson.
James Robinson: Hey, happy to be here. Thanks.
Jason Clark: And James Christiansen.
James Christiansen: Let’s rock and roll!
Jason Clark: So guys, welcome. Welcome to the conversation. How you guys doing? Are you ready?
James Robinson: I'm ready. Let's do it.
Jason Clark: Awesome. Lamont, I know that you, uh, this morning had to, uh, you already were on stage on a panel conversation. You had to race to this conversation. So thank you for that, but it's gonna, it's probably easy and nice to do back to back.
[00:03:06] Lamont Orange: Definitely. So my pleasure.
[00:03:09] Jason Clark: So we altogether, you know, over the last couple of years had worked on. Really with the industry, right. Spending time on, you know, hundreds of, of round table dinners and, and workshops and, you know, surveys and one-on-one conversations, right. Trying to collect. What is the future of security look like? And in this new world, Kind of digital transformation is just happening period. Right. For every organization. And security is kind of in this upside down world where we're trying to, you know, security teams are being stretched beyond belief. Right. And, and trying to keep up. So how are they going to be able to perform and gain leverage. In this new model, right? Cause they're obviously stressed and, um, they're looking at the legacy technology architectures and, and in the end, kind of these, these past ways that we've done stuff for the last 25 years, that we've all been working in this industry or more, we spent time together on 10 principles for the future. Right. And then obviously the rest of the security transformation playbook as part of, what does, if I need to get to by 20, 25 and beyond. So, you know, all of you have helped tremendous amount in this, right? And so just look for each of you to, to give, you know, your context to each principle, as we talk to them and experiences that you've had in these conversations, when these, you know, I'd say over, gosh, probably well over a thousand CISOs and CIO conversations that we. On this. Right. But also in your experiences as CISOs in any, you know, past lives as, as operating other organizations, as CISOs write about the past, moving to the future. So with that, you know, I'm going to start off with the principle one, right? Principle one is challenge all your existing principals, right? So what, what principles do you believe needs to be challenged from the past?
[00:05:04] James Christiansen: Yeah, you know, I really am. I always challenge everything. I think every day. I mean, I think you have to be an innovator to be a leader. You have to keep challenging status quo. You have to keep challenging yesterday's thoughts. And I think that's what we really did when we sat down. And as a team started listening to our colleagues and taking that input along with our own thoughts to really develop out these principles, it was really about challenging status quo. It's about challenging the way we've been doing things and really thinking about how business digitalization is changing us and our organizations, and certainly the, the quick movement to work from anywhere and what that's doing to the things we have to do as we look for.
[00:05:51] Jason Clark: What about the principle of, if it's not broke, don't fix it.
[00:05:54] James Christiansen: Yeah. I don't know. I've always been really good at breaking things, so I'm not the right guy to ask.
[00:06:00] Lamont Orange: And when you look at digital transformation, honestly, you're probably sanded. It's already broken. From how you want to move the organization forward so that, that you have to say that it is broken already, and it does need fixing because we're still having an escalated amount of attacks from attackers. They’re still being successful and are being successful at a high velocity rate. So we must come back to, it's already broken. Now it's how do we plant a seed and move forward?
[00:06:32] Jason Clark: So James, you’re a product security and application, you know, expert. And in my view, right, you've been doing it for a very long time for very large organizations. Well, how are the principals changed? From an app sec or product security or software pipeline standpoint.
[00:06:50] James Robinson: Yeah, one, the one that came to mind that, uh, I think it also got looped into a different principle was that trust, but verify that was one that for a long, long, long time we relied on the all through out the product security AppSec domain. And I think that now that really gets challenged a lot. That's one that was actually a very comfortable principle. Um, and one that, that I've relied on for many, many years that now it just totally gets broken, totally gets challenged and know that there's a lot of conversations about zero trust principles and it having its own. But it's really the zero trust architectures
[00:07:24] Jason Clark: That’s a good point. Trust, but verify has changed into zero trust. Right? That's that's a very good point. So principle two. Stop buying black box solutions and buy open and integrated. So I'd like to kind of say that in general vendors have bought a lot or technology companies, right, they’ve bought a lot of companies and integrated them, or they claim to integrate them. But generally the integration is a price list and the sales person selling to you. So overall, what's your guys' view on how the, how the industry needs to change in the way that we procure technologies?
[00:07:59] James Robinson: I'm jumping on this one first, because this, this was actually one that I saw that I've been talking internally a lot with Lamont about. Um, and it's that idea. I love the idea of open, you know, open NDR, open XDR, open cloud. Yeah, those, those types of things, we have to be able to, you know, make that almost requirement number one. In many ways, you know, we know the sum of many things is better than the sum of One, if you buy the black box, that's what you're getting is that sum of one, or maybe a sum of a few, um, and you have to, you know, build that intelligence by being open. That's really where it comes into. I'm a huge believer you'll out of, uh, out of some of them, you know, I know we've only talked about two, but right now this one is a probably ranked higher for me then principle one that we, that we talked about with challenge, everything, right? This one is, you know, this one is, is core. I think for us to be able to succeed with the future,
[00:08:54] James Christiansen: You know, I'm Jason I've bought best of breed products a lot through my career. You know, we, we very much went after with, uh, very aggressive companies like these, uh, that I was working for, you know, but today's world, you know, I have to look at best of breed platforms. I just can't afford the manpower it takes to manage all these different solutions. And the complexity it's brought to the organization, you know, just leads to human errors, leads to patches, not getting applied versions, not getting updated. So I've really had to move away and my thought process away from best of breed and started looking at best of breed platforms. Now, what can give me the best tightest integration, like you said, in your opening conversation, it can't be somebody with a lot of skew numbers, it has to be a truly integrated platform to solve the real problems.
[00:09:50] Jason Clark: So Erick, any thoughts from you on open and integrated? Why every solution we buy from this point forward, it should be more part of the ecosystem versus being the black boxes of kind of that we procured in the past.
[00:10:03] Erick Rudiak: Yeah. Great question, Jason. So like when I think about open and integrated and why it's so important, our systems are so interconnected. If there's no API to create visibility, like the complexity and interconnectedness of our systems kind of demands that signal from one defensive system, uh, be available to others so that they can orchestrate a response nearest to where the attacker is, and also so that a coherent user experience results. Um, and it becomes very, you know, both, uh, difficult for defenders to manage that. And candidly creates a drain and demands a level of complexity to weave those systems together that open an integrated, uh, is just a superior pattern for them.
[00:10:51] Jason Clark: Brilliant answer. Love it. So principle three is focused on foundational technologies that integrate with your entire security ecosystem. So I'll start with Lamont, you know, you've had the opportunity to build a Greenfield security program. What does that, you know, when, when you look at that right. What was the first stack that you built? What were the five core kind of foundational technologies that were part of this Greenfield infrastructure?
[00:11:16] Lamont Orange: So I think that's a very important question because when you talk about the transformation that security must go through you, you have to look at it. Not only from what tools are in my stack, but it's what capabilities we want and make that more aligned to the outcome. So I'd say the first capability That I wanted. It is around visibility. I had to see what was happening and order to affect the risk level of the organization and be able to put controls around that and tools that help you to understand what is happening would, would be a tool that looks at your usage of even legacy applications, as well as SaaS, IaaS, and PaaS technologies, you also have to take into consideration your identities. Many companies are struggling with identity as they have several IDPs. They have several managers of those identities, whether they are production systems or, uh, corporate systems. And what you want to do is have some sort of governance around it. So identity was one of the other areas that I focused on. And then you look at data protection. Well, we're all in it to protect our data. That is the crown jewel for the bad actor. We have to understand what valuable data we have and what data we like to protect. And then you look at where is that going? So you want to understand the data protection from the user to app to end point. So you have to have back to a comment that James Robinson made about being open with XDR NDR and whatever we put in front of. That DR capability, you have to have that understanding around the configuration of that device and even the organizations that may be using that data. And then there's one other capability that I think is very important to help organizations scale. Uh, when they're looking at a Greenfield, you need something that's going to manage your configuration automation and orchestration. And I think those are solutions that can be kept in one, one area, but they need to have the following those three capabilities in order to be effective.
[00:13:29] Jason Clark: Erick, on, on this, uh, principle around kind of foundational technologies. You know, landed in the other organizations. And now as a CTO, what would any thoughts on this one from an ecosystem standpoint around security,
[00:13:43] Erick Rudiak: There's a couple of things. So identity is one. Um, and you know, I think about that in terms of kind of the various levels of assertions that people in systems can make about who the human is at the other end of the line or who the system is that another system is working with. So that it kind of encompasses everything from multi-factor to kind of directory services, like that's absolutely vital to get right. I agree with Lamont, uh, that having data protection, having visibility into kind of data at rest and data in motion. Is another, and then, uh, it nowadays it's not particularly exciting, but the, kind of the very basics of encryption and configuration management and, you know, in thinking about configuration management, kind of incorporating both, uh, kind of config drift golden builds, you know, system hardening as well as, uh, vulnerability management, which I consider an instance of that class. Kind of pulling that all together. Those are among the first places that I have looked myself for, the kind of assurance that the basic blocking and tackling that the outrage factor of, uh, getting those wrong is managed and minimized for any organization that I’m part of.
[00:15:04] Jason Clark: Okay. So principle four only buy cloud powered new technologies. Right? So essentially everything you buy should be cloud power to cloud enabled or cloud born. You know, there's a Gartner paper. That's. The future of security is in the cloud, as we were doing this tour, there was a, a sentence said that, you know, cloud is the perfect reset for security programs, right? Because you get to kind of start fresh and do things, right. What do you, when you, so overall for all of you, what curious what you all think about this, this principle and, and why we wrote it.
[00:15:34] James Robinson: I think the principle is good. I think for us to take advantage of and, and to meet, you know, one of the things that we say internally is meet your customer, where they're at, you know, if the customer is, is in the cloud or they're moving to the cloud, right, which is even better to be where they're going to be, you have to adopt this principle. It has to be a foundational component for anything that you're looking at. ou know? And, and if it's, you know, cloud assisted, you may look at it. For instance, cloud assisted EDR. Okay, get it right. It's got to have something on the end point. It can't just all be cloud, but you know, for, for anything that's on the network stack for anything that's in the application stack server stack, um, you know, anywhere in between, you know, it definitely has to, has to carry with this principle.
[00:16:17] James Christiansen: You know, uh, Jason, this is the third major transformation I've been through it in my career and, and, um, technology and security versus movement from mainframes to client server. Then from client server to cloud enabled system. And now with business Digitas, digitalization, you know, we see these transformations and I think, you know, the further you resist them and don't recognize them the further you drop behind. So as you start thinking about cloud and cloud enablement, I talked to many CISOs every year, I mean, three or four hundred. And when we talk about what their plans are, where they see as SASE came out or are now secure service edge, And you start looking at definitions. When I start working with an organization and start looking where they're at, they're already somewhere down the path. They may be further in the maybe far, uh, ladder down, but they're, they're already on that path, which just, it just says we're the most common security folks recognize this is the pattern to go to. This is the direction. The only new investments I see are really just renewables. Cause they, they can't get moved off quick enough to the new cloud enabled, uh, technologies. But I think, you know, from a people process and technology perspective, all three it's about training our people on how to work in these cloud technologies. It's building out the processes that support those and the things, and finally implementing the technology, to enable those people and enable those process to provide the level of controls we need nowadays. But certainly the business is going there. We've seen the acceleration of that movement in the business and us as security professionals.
[00:17:59] Jason Clark: I mean in the end, isn't it, every bit as businesses going there and therefore your security needs to be where the data is and where the businesses. And also whenever you have a mobile workforce, you need to leverage the cloud to be able to secure that workforce because you can't just do it from your data center, right? Like in its simplest form, you just changing a leverage point in your scale.
[00:18:18] James Robinson: I love what James said, because when you talked about, you know, moving from, you know, from mainframe to client server, you know, we saw that major shift. If anyone's part of it, I definitely saw it and was part of it as well. And watching that happen, I could not imagine if you didn't make that shift, or if you did make that shift and you still tried to maintain, remember how hard it was to maintain in client server, those controls that you had and, and deliver those via the mainframe. It was almost impossible to do. In fact, it was impossible, which is why everyone's shifted and you saw the market change.
[00:18:49] Jason Clark: So the next one is principle five and. It potentially has more weight than many of the others. It is protect business data with security controls that follow the data everywhere. Right. So, which essentially to me is, you know, this is, this is the grand strategy of security it's for many companies or organizations why security exists. Right. It's just protecting the information. So, you know, maybe let's talk a little bit about, we named this a principle for a reason, right. Because I think we felt that people were historically not mature enough in data protection. So, Erick, what's your thoughts around kind of why we established this as a principle and in how people need to transform from a, how they look at data security or data protection?
[00:19:34] Erick Rudiak: Yeah, I think there's two elements to this one, Jason, like one way to look at it is the security industry has had a history of negotiating against itself. On controls like this of saying, oh, well, this data used to be in our, you know, in our data center, um, you know, protected by perimeter controls, but we want to move it into the cloud and, you know, the cloud just doesn't have quite the same thing, but boy, the cloud is so compelling, so we accept less. Um, and so, uh, one way to look at this principle and they're not mutually exclude. Is never accept less like don't compromise on, you know, uh, on this kind of very basic idea that no matter where your data goes, Your controls matter, um, because they certainly, uh, the, you know, the attacker doesn't look at the world that way. And so that is part of the cost of doing business. That's part of the economics of, uh, you know, of handling sensitive data. And so the obligation to the person whose data you're, uh, you're trafficking in doesn't change. If you've allowed the data to move from one environment to another. I think another way to look at this one is that it's immensely aspirational. So I think any of us who have done threat modeling, we'll look at that guiding principle and say, oh, Jason, uh, Surely, uh, surely you can't protect the data when I do this to it when I use steganography or when I use covert channels or when I, you know, when I take advantage of, you know, pick your favorite row and column out of the MITRE attack framework. Um, and I think aspirationally, it's a challenge to us to say no to say. Uh, we are going to put controls in place that kind of reaffirm our obligations as custodians, that wherever the data goes, we are going to know about it. We're going to assert our controls, that you know, that the attacker doesn't get to win by using these common patterns.
[00:21:42] Jason Clark: Yeah. It's um, it's, uh, you know, fair. If we can get the controls to follow the user and the data that is Nirvana, especially whenever we don't have to invest heavily to do it, but love. Principle six, prioritize your business and risk reward when making security strategy right. Or decisions. Right. And building your tactics, et cetera. Right. So essentially as the business constantly changed, right. So it's always a constant trade off and we need to be in tuned to the business to be able to make that decision. Right. But enable them. And I love, you know, the saying. This isn't about eliminating friction, right? It's the right amount of friction to the business. So curious, what, what, uh, each of you, James, maybe we'll start with you, uh, Christiansen on, you know, your thoughts on, on that principle.
[00:22:29] James Christiansen: Yeah. This, this one for me is an important one because more successful CISOs. They're not focused on stopping data protected. They're focused on enabling the business and they understand the role of enabling the business to find that right balance between risk and reward. Right. And can't get too far skewed on either side or you're not, you're not doing the company and the stockholder value. You've got to live up to your role, but it's about enabling the business. And when I think about this in, in terms of change and how fast things change. I really think about, you know, the seven forces that are on a security strategy and these forces are really something you should be looking at because they're constantly changing. And as they change, you should be in tune with that change and think about how has that affect my stress. Has that really make a difference in what I was planning to do versus what I should do now. And the seven forces, we put out a white paper on it recently that I would encourage you to go read, but it seems like the culture of the company, a merger and acquisition might change. The culture might change in many ways. So how does that change the way you're looking at the economy and economic forces, government forces, conflicts, things that aren't directly related, but have these impacts on your overall security strategy. And as they change, you need to be agile as an organization. You need to be able to shift quickly and shift effectively to stay up with the business, because remember where we started this it's about enabling. The business and that's what you should always keep in mind.
[00:24:16] Jason Clark: So anybody else, you know James, Erick, and Lamont to add to that the prioritization of the business risk and reward.
[00:24:23] Erick Rudiak: So when I think about what's happened in the last year and a half, you know, we all woke up on March the 13th of last year and all of our annualized loss expectancy curves were garbage. Like they, uh, they were fundamentally flawed because there had been this injection of a completely new risk and totally new risk reward needs in terms of ALE. And so when I think about where our industry was 10 years ago, um, you know, a lot of us practitioners would say, you know, don't spend a thousand bucks, you know, to protect 10. And I think what has happened since then is our counterparts in the C-suite, the boards that govern us have become much more sophisticated. And so they expect us, as security practitioners, to understand business’ risk tolerance. And to come in with a narrative that says, look as your CISO, here's how closely our loss expectancy curves match our risk tolerance. And here's what needs to, you know, what we need to do in some places we may need to invest, in others we may actually have so much control that we can afford to take a little bit more risk, um, and you know, in adjust and be business positive and support additional capabilities to improve productivity. And so we've all, kind of through a forced Sentinel evet, had to learn that skill very quickly over the last year and a half, you know, the silver lining for us as security practitioners is, um, that skill is going to really come in handy for us. As we get back in front of our boards, as we get back into, uh, into the C-suite and discuss with our peers at the table. Not why we are saying yes or no to particular controls, but how our entire control environment matches our risk tolerance. And that's, you know, uh, just a maturation of the dialogue that we engage in and it's, you know, it's a really exciting one. It gives us a seat at the table.
[00:26:29] Jason Clark: Yeah, I think that it is, we look at it. We have to think about it again. It's just, we always say this, but as business leaders and, and how is this, what this activity, the business is trying to do, going to, for companies focused on, you know, acquiring, retaining profitable customers, right? Which is any way that's in the business of making money. And how are activities, the business doing, going to accelerate that right. And to what degree, what, how much do I doing need to protect them? Or can I let them go and then apply protections and, and just, just truly understanding the things that can move the needle for the business. And I mean, I, I personally deal with it every single day. And looking at marketing stuff and looking at security stuff. Lamont and I are in the conversations daily, right? Or about, about what's, uh, wanting to open up something that we want to do versus the balance of security of it. Right. And, and the marketing team wants to, you know, always wants to, wants to push forward, but we want to make sure that partner we're signing up to access our Salesforce information it's secure. Right. And it's all about the outcomes. And then how long do we have to. To apply the security controls. So I think it's, uh, it's not something that every security team's built with today, they think of things as well. There needs to be an exception. Who's going to sign off on the risk versus rationalizing it. Like you just said, Erick. So principle seven is build threat models and use them in every architecture decision you make. So Erick, you know, when you first heard James Robinson talk about threat models. At one point, I think you kind of came to me and said, uh, Jason Knight, I want to hire James Robinson away from you.
[00:28:08] Erick Rudiak: That sounds like me. Like I would have brazenly just said none for you all for me. That's totally on brand,
[00:28:16] Jason Clark: But we'd love your thoughts on principle seven here.
[00:28:21] Erick Rudiak:No, I mean, I think, uh, boy, it sure is hard to defend against something that you've never seen or thought about. And so like, everybody likes to use military analogies for this, but like I think about, so I've got a kid that loves to go to the neighborhood tennis courts with me and, you know, hit the ball around, um, in boy, uh, the first time that I threw a slice backhand at that kid, it was a predictably hilarious. Like they'd only ever seen the top spin shot and they just kind of swung and missed as soon as the ball landed and skidded away. And so I think that's, you know, that, that practice for our defenders and our defenders are everyone. Right? It's our infrastructure folks. It's our cloud, uh, engineering. It's our, uh, software engineers and everybody in between it. So user experience folks, it's our, you know, it's our database and middleware folks. They have to have seen both the top spin and the back spin in order to be able to effectively do that. And so that's, you know, that's why red teaming and attack simulation are such a vital part of any world-class, uh, information protection organization is because that practice is just so important.
[00:29:34] Jason Clark: Principal eight expand security operations automation. Right? So ultimately just a hyper-focus on automating your operations. So Lamont, can you maybe talk a little bit to why this principle song.
[00:29:46] Lamont Orange: I think it's a very important principle given that I think I spoke earlier about the increased velocity of attacks that we see. And I think it was also mentioned about some of the complexities that we have in our organization. So when you think of all of that, and you think of our, our teams, our skill, how skilled our teams are. And just the tooling resources that we have, we have to keep up at the speed of our attacker. And in some ways. We have to go and propel ourselves further and faster than the speed of our attacker is a better way to say it. And I think the way to do that is through automation. We have spent lots of time, I think, in the security industry, working with the security automation, tools and resources, formerly known as SOAR. We've spent some time with, with, uh, orchestration tools and confusing them as SOAR tools. And I think we, we really just need to take a step back and say automation is something that we should focus on when we're looking for scale and flexibility. And that will allow the velocity to be reduced to signal, to noise ratio, to be reduced. And then we further can react to these alerts that come through. Some of these things come in the form of having some of the foundational components built such as runbooks. And understanding how you are to execute a standard process throughout your SOC. That's something that you can automate from a maturity standpoint, but you can orchestrate a response in the very beginning, understanding how you triage. Triage is something that can be orchestrated, and then you can automate the response and control. When you talk about also automating and using orchestration within your SOC, you're also updating your incident response and management procedures. The incident management practices that we've used in the past don't necessarily scale very well to the attack, the type of threats that we have, the type of interaction that we have, have to have what I workforce, our suppliers and vendors. We've extended our attack surface, which I know we'll talk about in a different principle, but the extension of that attack surface is really something that we have to look at when we're thinking about how automation helps us again, achieve that scale and flexibility. I think there's another piece of this that we can't always run through our teams and say, well, it's contained into security. As long as security says, it's good, then we're fine. We also have to communicate what we're doing to our team members so that once they understand why we do some of the things we do, they will also be a willing person. And that's part of that transparency that I, that I believe that's part of automating and building out that, that SOC. And that's why it becomes the heartbeat of your security and response programs.
[00:32:54] Jason Clark: Sí. Es curioso cuando nos fijamos en estos principios, ¿verdad? Están todos muy interconectados entre sí, ¿verdad? Y dependen unos de otros para ser realmente buenos. Antes, antes de pasar al principio nueve, alguien quiere agregar algo sobre las operaciones de seguridad que Lamont.
[00:33:11] James Robinson: Tengo uno que, eh, es más solo una pregunta para él o para todos. Entonces, una de las cosas en las que he estado pensando cada vez más, y observo a algunos de mis constructores, desarrolladores, ingenieros, ingenieros de software, hermanos, y he trabajado con cada juego y la idea de runbooks y libros de jugadas y demás, ya sabes, fuera de la arquitectura y el diseño, ya sabes, o una de esas cosas, eso es algo así como en el pasado, en algunos casos, y me pregunto si, ¿dónde Si se encuentra en lo que respecta a la automatización, ¿todavía requiere y hace que su equipo construya, cree los libros de ejecución, los libros de jugadas y esas, esas cosas diferentes, y eso es lo que gobierna y establece, la automatización para escalar, o está tomando una ¿enfoque diferente?
[00:33:52] Lamont Orange: Ese es un debate interesante. Honestamente, creo que muy, muy pocos programas han pasado a la automatización y la automatización confiable. Creo que volviendo a lo que dije sobre la orquestación, la orquestación será la ejecución de las tareas que deben realizarse. Creo que los runbooks y estoy usando ese término de manera muy vaga. Puede ser un proceso estándar que esté utilizando para responder a cierto tipo de incidente. O un cierto tipo de pregunta del equipo de seguridad, un cierto requisito que se plantea dentro del desarrollo o con cualquiera de sus equipos a los que les emitiría requisitos si están manejando ciertos tipos de datos, o si tienen cierto tipo. de interacciones del sistema, creo que puedes orquestar esas respuestas. Tenemos que madurar en la parte de automatización porque no estoy seguro de que todos los programas confíen todavía en la acción automatizada. Ese ha sido el desafío.
[00:34:53] Erick Rudiak: En realidad, les daré una perspectiva desde la ingeniería de software sobre este caso. Cuando pienso en las características de rendimiento de un programa de software, correcto. Hay una especie de, ya sabes, en comp, comp sci, todos podemos haber aprendido sobre, O, notación, cierto. O notación O de N. Y recientemente tuve una gran conversación con nuestra CISO y ella me preguntó. Para analizar algunas de nuestras velocidades y feeds, ¿cuántos repositorios de GitHub tenemos? ¿Cuántas confirmaciones hacemos por día? ¿Sabes cuántas veces ejecutamos nuestras tuberías por día? Y fue una gran conversación sobre si podíamos escalar nuestra seguridad en O de N o en O de log N. Y aquí es donde la automatización es absolutamente vital, ya sabes, en realidad habla del desafío del talento y algunos de los desafíos de diversidad en la seguridad de la información y la automatización es el mejor camino a seguir. Para escalar nuestros controles de una O de N a una O de log N o incluso algo más pequeño. Por eso, la capacidad de eliminar el elemento humano o canalizar los elementos humanos hacia la resolución de problemas más complejos y más interesantes es tan vital. Por ejemplo, no sé cómo, ya sabes, cómo una empresa puede mantenerse al día con la escala de la demanda. Tanto en el lado del atacante con nuevas técnicas y tipos de malware, ransomware, técnicas de ataque, etcétera, en evolución, como también, simplemente la capacidad de una organización hoy en día para escalar su suministro de superficie de ataque con servicios en la nube fácilmente aprovisionados, etcétera, como si la automatización fuera la única manera. Y en el libro, hablamos sobre esta idea de aquellos tiempos en los que algunos de nosotros conocíamos a nuestros servidores por su nombre. Bien. Fueron tratados como mascotas. Eran amados. Se esperaba que tuvieran una vida útil muy larga, frente a la idea de que los servidores actuales sean como ladrillos Lego, producidos en masa y con una vida útil intencionada o no extremadamente corta. Y simplemente no hay una manera realmente buena en la que haya podido lograr la escala de la organización de seguridad para satisfacer las necesidades contemporáneas. Que no incluyan automatizaciones, un principio fundamental
[00:37:10] Jason Clark: Me encanta la analogía, Erick. Y esa es una gran sección del libro que todo el mundo debería, definitivamente, debería leer. Entonces, el principio nueve y comenzaré con, eh, James Christiania y luego pasaré a Erick sobre esto porque he tenido el mejor tipo de conversaciones de riesgo con ustedes dos. Pero su principio nueve es exigir visibilidad continua y evaluación de riesgos y cada control de seguridad, esencialmente, queremos tiempo real. Evaluación de riesgos y controles versus este tipo de evaluaciones únicas, correcto, evaluaciones de riesgos una vez al año. Entonces James comienza contigo.
[00:37:43] James Christiansen: Sí. Gracias. Um, ya sabes, este siempre es un tema candente para mí y ya sabes, voy a tomar esto, uh, solo un par de direcciones, pero seré breve aquí. Ya sabes, la idea de visibilidad continua. Sí. El primer principio y riesgo es que no se pueden gestionar riesgos que no se conocen, por lo que es absolutamente necesario obtener ese riesgo o esa visibilidad. Y lo que hemos visto es un cambio: pasamos de un servidor cliente a una nube, y luego a este nuevo mundo, hemos perdido esa visibilidad. Perdimos esas capacidades que teníamos, ya sabes, en nuestros días anteriores. Y necesitamos recuperarlos. La visibilidad es absolutamente esencial, ya sabes, y la otra parte es continua. Y a menudo escuchamos la palabra confianza cero, pero es un término del que no soy muy partidario principalmente porque, ya sabes, con los equipos ejecutivos, trae a colación la connotación equivocada de Oh, tú eres el tipo de seguridad. No confías en nadie. Y había, ya sabes, gente de seguridad, que piensan en, ya sabes, fichas. Yo me encargué de ello. Bueno, prefiero pensar en ello como una confianza adaptativa continua. O un programa de seguridad que se adapta continuamente y que automáticamente analiza los riesgos y es capaz de medir las diferentes telemetrías de riesgo y ajustar la reacción a esos riesgos. Ya sabes, ¿por qué necesitamos el mismo nivel de controles? Si alguien va a ir a ESPN y verifica esto, su seguridad o sus puntajes de fútbol, como sería, si fuera a mirar. Ya sabes, los materiales para el prelanzamiento del tablero, ya sabes, obviamente, niveles de riesgo muy, muy diferentes. Mucha telemetría viene en ese dispositivo, la aplicación, la ubicación del individuo, ese tráfico, todo eso se puede medir ahora. Y esa es la clave para los oyentes. Existe la capacidad. Poder hacer esto ahora y tomar estas decisiones adaptativas en tiempo real sobre el nivel de riesgo, esa ruta de controles y poder adaptar esos controles. Así que creo que este es un momento realmente emocionante para poder analizar estos riesgos y poder adaptarnos a medida que avanzamos. Sí. Hay otra conversación completamente diferente sobre el riesgo de terceros y luego los riesgos de cuartos que, bueno, tendremos que dejar para otro día, pero hay otro gran tema con eso. Devuélvemelo a ti, Jason.
[00:39:59] Erick Rudiak: Estoy tratando de encontrar una manera de argumentar en contra de la visibilidad constante. Y no puedo encontrar uno, um, ya sabes, uh, ¿preferiría tener más información o menos, preferiría detectar ataques y progresar antes o más lentamente? Um, ¿hubiera preferido un tiempo de permanencia prolongado o un tiempo de permanencia corto? Sí. Uh, preferiría estar ganando. Y entonces, ya sabes, pienso en esta idea de visibilidad continua, eh, puede, me lleva de vuelta a Peter Sandman y las comunicaciones de crisis. Um, y Peter, la definición no ortodoxa de riesgo de Sandman es la suma de peligro e indignación. Y de ahí el factor de indignación de querer, no saber. De nosotros en esta era moderna con la capacidad de monitorear algo constantemente y sin elegir, sin saber que un control falló, sin saber que una configuración cambió, sin saber que, ya sabes, un mal actor había ingresado a nuestros sistemas. Como si el factor de indignación fuera simplemente, um, insostenible.
[00:41:09] Jason Clark: Entonces, último, último principio, sabemos cuáles son. Estos son, nuevamente, los 10 que consideramos más importantes y que ayudan a las personas a prepararse para el futuro. Probablemente podríamos, ya sabes, tener varios con los que comenzamos y que teníamos 20 para empezar y lo redujimos a 10, pero el décimo es reducir la superficie de ataque usando confianza cero. principios.
[00:41:31] Erick Rudiak: ] Acabo de escuchar que no nos gusta la confianza cero. Vamos a tener que cambiarlo.
[00:41:36] Jason Clark: Creo que la industria está confundida acerca de la confianza cero. ¿No lo son? Um, ya sabes, ¿qué es la confianza cero?
[00:41:43] Erick Rudiak: Para mí, la cosa, ya sabes, la cosa con confianza cero es que la confianza decae con el tiempo. Y entonces, cuando pienso en, el ejemplo más clásico de eso para mí es el tiempo de espera de la pantalla inactiva, como el control clásico, es parte de PCI. Solía ser parte del NIST como parte de, ya sabes, casi todos los marcos de seguridad durante décadas, donde se hacía una aproximación que decía, oh, bueno, si alguien conociera la contraseña de Jason. Lo ingresó en la terminal de Jason y, finalmente, en la PC o computadora portátil de Jason y, finalmente, en el teléfono de Jason. Luego se supone que durante algún período de tiempo, probablemente siga siendo Jasonn. Um, y, uh, como si desafiara la lógica, uh, especialmente cuando pensamos en, ya sabes, los factores humanos y el diseño y la forma en que la gente realmente trabaja, ya sabes, 14,9 minutos después de que se ingresó esa contraseña, que Deberíamos tener la misma confianza en la entrada de ese terminal, de esa PC, de ese teléfono, como la tuvimos en el momento en que Jason ingresó su contraseña. Y me gusta cuando pienso en la confianza cero y por qué. Para mí es porque reconoce esta falsedad que la industria de la seguridad toleró durante años, porque la tecnología era demasiado difícil porque era demasiado cara y llegamos a este compromiso. Dijimos, sí. Confiamos en ese término. Por hasta 15 minutos y asignaríamos el mismo nivel de confianza a la entrada, los paquetes que, ya sabes, ese dispositivo generó en el minuto 14 del noveno minuto como lo hicimos en el primero. Um, entonces es hora de seguir adelante.
[00:43:23] Jason Clark: Sabes, el debate en confianza cero es que, ya sabes, obviamente hay proveedores, que dirán, oh, esto es todo. Bien, o se trata del punto final o creo que no es algo binario, no está activado o desactivado. Bien. Que hay gente que argumenta que la confianza está activada o desactivada. Y lo veo como si pudieras entrar a mi casa por la puerta principal y yo te dejo entrar, pero eso no significa que puedas ir a todas las habitaciones. No significa que puedas entrar en mi caja fuerte.
[00:43:44] Erick Rudiak: Ooh, vamos a tener que hablar sobre la última vez que vine a tu casa, Jason.
[00:43:49] Jason Clark: Y, ya sabes, solo en función de tu comportamiento, ¿verdad? Como dijiste, ¿cuánto tiempo llevas allí y esa instancia, verdad? Cuanto más tiempo estés aquí, tal vez confíe más en ti porque he observado tu comportamiento. Bien. Así que podría argumentar la otra cara de la moneda, tal vez todo desde el punto de vista de la autenticación, pero cuanto más estás aquí, más veo tu comportamiento, más salgo contigo. Cuanto más te dejo ir a otras habitaciones. Supongo que lo que intento decir es que para mí hay confianza en un dispositivo. ¿Confío en tu dispositivo y cuánto? Y en ese momento, algo así como esa evaluación de riesgos en tiempo real. ¿Confío en la red? Vienes de la red Irán. ¿Confío en ti como persona en este momento, según tu comportamiento, confío en la aplicación que vas a utilizar, verdad? Porque no eres sólo tú, es la aplicación, tu acto con el que estás interactuando y ¿está potencialmente comprometido? Los datos que estás intentando cargar o descargar, ¿cuál es el impacto de eso? Bien. Y para mí, existe una especie de decisión de control condicional basada en riesgos en tiempo real para enfrentarnos. Como Nirvana de confianza cero en mi mente, o te voy a dar cero. Verdadero. Te daré cero acceso o confiaré completamente en ti. Llamemos a ese cero nivel cinco y luego digamos que hay 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, correcto. Para mí, el tres en el medio es que te doy acceso a los datos, pero es ver y editar solo en línea, no. Bien. Uno podría ser varios saltos adicionales en los que escriba un párrafo de por qué necesita estos datos y que es una emergencia o lo que sea. Entonces, en cierto modo veo esto como una confianza cero, ya que este lugar al que debemos llegar es conducir a la confianza cero para reducir la superficie de ataque, pero en última instancia, hacer que las personas por comportamiento ganen más confianza según sea necesario. Para no poner fricción a los ocupados. Pero Lamont. Sé que tengo curiosidad, ya que aquí hablamos mucho sobre confianza cero, pero la primera parte de este principio fue reducir la superficie de ataque usando confianza cero. Bien. Entonces, ya sabes, como estás defendiendo tu organización, ¿verdad? Cada día, ¿cómo impulsas este principio? ¿Estamos reduciendo los ataques?
[00:45:46] Lamont Orange: Creo que el primer lugar en el que deberíamos mirar desde el principio es la visibilidad y el análisis, la visibilidad. Lo siento, análisis, porque si no puede verlo, es difícil aplicarlo, controlarlo o protegerlo, y eso será visibilidad para su usuario, visibilidad para su infraestructura, para sus datos. Y luego puede comenzar a unir esos casos de uso en cuanto a qué es lo más importante para la organización en ese momento. Me gustan los niveles y cómo los describiste. Pero también tenemos que entender cuál es el activo más importante y podemos llegar a un acuerdo y decir que son datos, pero qué datos, cuáles establecen un dato y uno analiza esos controles a través de esa visibilidad y capacidad analítica para aplicar esos controles a ese día.
[00:46:32] Jason Clark: Creo que también hemos cubierto absolutamente esos 10 principios. Así que gracias por escuchar a los Visionarios de la Seguridad y esté atento a los nuevos episodios que se publican cada semana con profesionales de la seguridad de toda la industria. Así que gracias a Erick Lamont y James por su tiempo. Y ha sido divertido
[00:46:50] Patrocinador: El podcast de los visionarios de la seguridad está impulsado por el equipo de Netskope que busca la plataforma de seguridad en la nube adecuada para permitir su viaje de transformación digital. La nube de seguridad de Netskope le ayuda a conectar a los usuarios de forma segura y rápida directamente a Internet desde cualquier dispositivo a cualquier aplicación. Obtenga más información en Netskope.
[00:47:11] Productor: Gracias por escuchar a Security Visionaries, tómese un momento para calificar y revisar el programa y compartirlo con alguien. Estén atentos a los nuevos episodios que se lanzan cada dos semanas. Y nos vemos en el próximo episodio.