Emily Heath (00:00): This landscape is changing and it comes to a point where I honestly believe CSOs are going to be some of the highest paid professionals in the future, and it's already heading in that direction over the last few years. We've seen a lot of change already, but this is going to be one of the most highest paid jobs in business because it will get to a point that you're not going to be able to pay people enough money to take on this amount of risk.
Producer (00:25): Hello and welcome to Security Visionaries, hosted by Jason Clark, chief security officer and chief strategy officer at Netskope. You just heard from today's guest Emily Heath, senior vice president and chief trust and security officer at DocuSign. It's been said that you don't get paid for how much you work, but for how much responsibility you have. And in today's modern business world managing risk is a massive responsibility. As cybersecurity threats dominate the headlines the role of security leads, whether they're chief security officers or chief information security officer, becomes one of the most important functions in the C-suite.
Producer (01:06): They're responsible for safeguarding the data, money, and everything else vital to the business. The role is anything but easy, and as Emily points out, individuals capable of shouldering this burden are going to become some of the most sought after executives in the world. And Emily isn't backing down from the challenge. In fact, she's encouraging her fellow CSOs not to either. Before her tenure as DocuSign's chief trust and security officer, Emily served as CSO for United Airlines and AECOM, held various other technology and strategy leadership roles, and began her career as a fraud squad detective in the UK police force. But before we dive in and hear more from Emily, here's a word from our sponsor.
Sponsor (01:50): The Security Visionaries Podcast is powered by the team at Netskope. Netskope is the sassy leader offering everything you need to provide a fast, data centric, and cloud smart user experience at the speed of business today. Learn more at netskope.com.
Producer (02:08): Without further ado, please enjoy episode three of Security Visionaries with your host Jason Clark and Emily Heath, senior vice president and chief trust and security officer at DocuSign.
Jason Clark (02:21): So welcome to Security Visionaries, I am your CSO at Netskope. Today I am joined by a very special guest and good friend, Emily Heath. Emily, how are you?
Emily Heath (02:31): Jason, always a pleasure to see you. Doing well, thanks.
Jason Clark (02:34): I was thinking about this conversation. I'm thinking, when did I meet Emily? Do you remember when the first time we ever met was?
Emily Heath (02:42): God, now you're going by a few years, buddy. Probably, I don't know was it Security Advisors Alliance in Dallas?
Jason Clark (02:51): Right.
Emily Heath (02:51): Right? Yeah, it was.
Jason Clark (02:53): Yes, the Advisor Alliance in Dallas and I remember you, I remember it was actually at the bar and we both were ordering I think it was
.
Emily Heath (03:02): That would be a good choice.
Jason Clark (03:05): And then we were like, hey, and we just kind of started talking. I think that was probably six or seven years ago.
Emily Heath (03:09): Yeah.
Jason Clark (03:10): So getting started what was your first, tell us about your first security job.
Emily Heath (03:14): Oh my gosh. Well my very first security job goes way back 25, 30 years or so. I used to be a police officer in England, I was a detective for many years. And this is kind of about the era when cyber wasn't really a thing back then but computer crime was starting to be a thing. And so I worked in the financial crimes unit in what we called the fraud squad, and that was the unit that was responsible for computer crime. And it was completely foreign to me at the time, I mean going back in those days you used to go do a raid on a business or a home, and you'd come out with hundreds of bankers boxes full of contracts and documents. And it's just such a turn to see how that now is all translated to cyber. But I like to think that from a cyber perspective that was probably the very first job trying to dissect computers.
Jason Clark (04:09): And tell us a little bit about your job today and your current role at DocuSign.
Emily Heath (04:12): Yeah, so my job at DocuSign now is a little varied actually. So I'm the chief trust and security officer, so there's a couple of sides to that. There's the usual cyber security related stuff that you would imagine, security architecture, engineering, security operations, and all of those things. I also have the governance risk and compliance group. I have fraud, physical security, health and safety as well. And then the trust side of the job is actually a very customer facing side of the job. So DocuSign as many people know is a really trusted platform because we're a part of our customer's ecosystem, security and trust is super important. So I spent a ton of time with customers now, which I love.
Jason Clark (04:53): I think that's something that's going to continue to evolve for every company that is a [inaudible 00:05:00] technology organization. [inaudible 00:05:02] economy that is, the chief trust and security officer being very engaged with the customers will come, I think, the norm.
Emily Heath (05:11): Yeah, exactly.
Jason Clark (05:12): So getting, our first kind of segment here is taboo topics.
Jason Clark (05:26): Well this segment's about security taboos, misconceptions, controversy. And by the way, you can ask me anything, bring up anything you want to bring up. But the first question for you on this is what do you believe is the fastest growing risk in cyber security today, right? That effects most companies?
Emily Heath (05:43): Yeah. God, there's so many of them it's hard to choose one. I think ransomware is the one that just brings to mind just because you think about the monetization of crime when it comes to cyber, these attacks are no longer just to inconvenience organizations or bragging rights, there's a lot of money in this crime. Long gone are the days where somebody walks into a bank with a [inaudible 00:06:07] shotgun and walks away with $20,000 at best. I mean you're talking millions and tens of millions for these types of crimes. So I think ransom is, we're just seeing the beginning of it. And the more and more you see that companies are paying ransoms, it's just going to proliferate the problem. So it's a trend unfortunately I don't think is going anywhere anytime soon.
Jason Clark (06:30): So it's the new bank robber basically, right?
Emily Heath (06:34): Yeah.
Jason Clark (06:34): So what's your thoughts around, kind of this feeling like this taboo topic, what do you feel around should companies be paying the ransom or not be paying the ransom? What should legislation be around that?
Emily Heath (06:45): God, it's such a tough one. I don't even know where the legislation can be involved in that. It's a really slippery slope because there's a cost of doing business, and if this becomes a new cost of doing business, I mean I'm not advocating for it in any way shape or form, but every organization is different and until it hits you and until your operations are the ones that are crippled, it's really difficult to say whether or not you should or shouldn't pay a ransom. I mean we all know that there's never any guarantee that you're going to get out the other side of it anyway. But if you look at some of the companies recently that have paid ransoms, we are not in the room, we don't know the impact to their actual business function. And I just, I'm not sure whether this is going to end up being a legislation issue, it's a business issue.
Jason Clark (07:34): Yeah. I mean sometimes it can mean lives, right? I mean getting electricity turned back on or getting the medical systems you need turned back on, that shouldn't be a choice that is made because of a law, right? And when you look at it, ransom is obviously a very, very hard problem and we just need to obviously get better at everything. I think, curious like if you think about ransoms, okay that's one, but what's one that you think people are not aware of? What's the fastest growing risk as a CSO? What do you think is growing that a lot of IT organizations, a lot of boards are unaware of? So ransoms in the news every single day, but is there anything else that you can think of that is a rapid growing risk that you think those leaders should be aware of?
Emily Heath (08:24): Yeah, there is a little bit of a theme right now where you're seeing a lot of experienced security professionals leaving the industry. And my fear is that there's going to be a big hole, right? This business has been around for a while but certainly not to the magnitude that it has been over the last four or five years or so. And a lot of the security professionals are leaving the industry to go vendor side, or they're leaving to go to a VC side. The talent and expertise that is leaving the security jobs is frightening. Don't know how you solve that necessarily apart from, as a leader it's our job to make sure that we are investing in the leaders of tomorrow. And I think as an organization I'm not sure there's this great organizational awareness to the big talent gap for senior leaders in the security business and really super talented folks, who honestly are moving to the vendor side and moving to the VC side because quite frankly there's more money in it.
Jason Clark (09:25): Let's talk about this a little later because we talk about the future but I think it's, there's more money but also the CSO job is extremely hard, very, very hard and very taxing.
Emily Heath (09:37): Super stressful.
Jason Clark (09:37): I mean there's many, many friends where they've been like, look Jason, I've given up my last vacation, or I was the best, Dave Fairman at RBC, he said, Jason, I was the best man at a wedding and I was told either go to the wedding or stay here, but if you go to the wedding you won't have a job. And that is emotionally taxing. So I think we're ending up in this where the threats are getting worse, the problem's getting harder, there's more data than ever, we have 57 zettabytes of data in the world and by 2025 there'll be 175 zettabytes. So I think as you think about that attack surface growing, and to your point the people are getting harder to find, that is, so I love that you pointed that out. I think that's a great unknown risk as you just said. So kind of going into a little bit of a deep dive.
Jason Clark (10:46): Maybe walk us through how you pivoted from in the Cheshire police to cyber, talk us through that transition.
Emily Heath (10:55): When I was a detective I took a career break for a while, and you can take a career break up to three years. And I did and the punchline is I taught myself how to code, don't tell anyone. But I taught myself how to code and I actually started my own web design business during the career break. By the time I went back to the police I realized that there was a big world out there and a world that I really wanted to explore. And so one of my former web clients actually called me one day and said, hey, are you interested in this opportunity at MGM studios in London? And it was working for a startup back in the days when DVDs were a thing, it was a startup that managed all of the DVD distribution and supply chain and inventory management for the movie studios. So I left the force, I left law enforcement and did that job. It was not a security job. I did many different areas of IT and technology before I kind of did full circle all the way back to security.
Emily Heath (11:48): But I was the lead program manager on a software implementation for the studios, that's how I ended up in the US maybe, almost 20 years ago now, working with MGM who got acquired by Sony Pictures, so I worked with Sony for many years. And then ultimately when that little thing called PCI came along, and I'd been running infrastructure teams, PMOs, web design teams, and engineers, my boss at the time said, hey, Emily, you were a cop. You were a cop, weren't you? You understand the law, can you figure out this encryption thing and this PCI thing, these laws that are coming in? So it was really purely by accident that I ended getting into more of a legal, compliance, security type role. But it's funny how you look back on your career and your life and you realize that it's all one big jigsaw puzzle. You don't realize at the time how one thing leads to the next. And then when you look back you realize, my gosh, I would not be set up for success in this job had I not done that job.
Emily Heath (12:50): And so it felt like coming home to me, my experience in technology coupled with experience in law enforcement. And they're two very different things, but the skill sets that you bring with you from law enforcement, the skill sets were a lot about people. It was, you're dealing with people from all walks of life. And I translate that to the constituents within an organization, right? I mean we deal with so many different stakeholders from so many different business units, and managing to navigate the corporate world is very much like law enforcement, you're just managing different characters. So it really did feel like coming home to me and I took a very deliberate path to choose the CSO route and not the CIO route. I had opportunities a few years ago to go one way or the other and I chose this route, and I chose the right one for me personally.
Jason Clark (13:44): I'm constantly asked by CSO's, I coach about 15 different CSOs and I'm asked, hey, I've got this opportunity to become the CIO or the interim CIO. And I actually generally coach them no. Focus on CSO, focus on security as a specialty that is going to grow increasing importance. And I basically tell them that financially I believe they'll make more or the same. You talked about kind of a little bit of your experience with PCI, I thank PCI to the start of my career as well. I was out of the army and the New York Times got compromised, and I got the CSO job at the New York Times when I was 27 years old because they needed to have a CSO title and it was driven by loss of credit cards and for one of their business units and I was asked to step in. And when else can a 27 year old with cybersecurity experience and the fact that I had management experience because I was military, I mean it's insane. That would not happen today, a 27 year old being a CSO that quickly. So I thank PCI as well.
Emily Heath (14:53): Yeah, I know. It's like the people ask why did you choose cyber as a career? And I said, I didn't choose it, it chose me. Definitely twists and turns.
Jason Clark (15:04): It's been amazing. So you were the CSO, we met when you were the CSO for United Airlines, and you had tremendous responsibilities there. What are the differences and the similarities between that and your current role at DocuSign?
Emily Heath (15:22): Yeah. So, I mean United Airlines I don't think it gets much more complicated than a huge, big, global airline. Just the sheer scale and complexity of an organization like that is incredible. And obviously it's a much bigger company than coming to DocuSign, so the differences of scale and complexity are very, very different, however the types of issues that we deal with are very much the same. And no matter where I go, or any company, or advice I give to other CSO friends who are joining new companies, I ask myself five fundamental questions, which really doesn't matter which organization that you're in. And it really comes down to what's most important to you first and foremost? A company like United, what's most important is human life. You're flying people, safety is number one. A company like DocuSign, we're a very data driven company so the agreements that people trust us with are what matter to us the most.
Emily Heath (16:19): So what matters most? Where is it? How are you securing it? Where are you most vulnerable and at risk? And how resilient are you when it hits the fan and you need to bounce back? And I think if you go into any new job and ask yourself those five questions, doesn't matter what company it is, doesn't matter what entity it is, those five questions are still very relevant. Because if you understand what matters to you the most you've got a framework to prioritize the task that's undoubtedly ahead of you. So the challenges are the same, it's the same kind of people, same kind of adversaries, scale and complexity is very different, but how you run a security program is fundamentally the same thing.
Jason Clark (17:06): Yeah, 100%. It's just different complexities. Scale is one but then when you're a company you have a different set, and it isn't harder or easier. When you said, when it hits the fan, I love how you said when it hits the fan, I quickly imagined the scene in Airplane, the movie Airplane, right? Where the shit literally did hit the fan, that's what I picture [inaudible 00:17:35]. So look, I love your title, chief trust and security officer. So talk to us a little bit about what additional responsibilities you have and how this changes the way either your company or your customers perceive you with the word trust in there?
Emily Heath (17:53): Yeah. So trust to me is, the security side is what we all understand. It's securing the nuts and bolts and securing the technology and all those things. When you start layering in this concept of trust it's about that intangible. It's the relationships that you're building with people. So when we are building relationships with customers, you cannot trust people that you don't know. So therefore the time I spend with customers is to build relationships with them because I see it as my duty and my obligation to be completely transparent about what we're doing. I think the foundations of how you build trust are truly embedded in that. So I'm not talking about just zero trust as a framework or trust as in what we traditionally have called trust within the security realms, it goes way beyond that to me. It really is a lot about the, you've got to walk your walk. You've got to show up. You've got to be transparent. You've got to be upfront and be honest.
Emily Heath (18:54): And it's actually more than just security. So for example, I also help run our ESG program, the environmental, social, and governance program. Because as part of the chief trust officer role it's not just security, what are the other element of trust and what does that mean to your organization? So I get heavily involved in topics like DNI, I'm a huge advocate of diversity and inclusion and belonging, as you know. The ESG type programs that any organization runs, that all falls under a trust umbrella. So it's really broader than just the traditional security, physical security, cybersecurity type realms because it's about your organization's trust and what that means to your customers, your partners, and your employees.
Emily Heath (19:40): So it's something that we are evolving like every other company. I feel very strongly that we shouldn't be using words like trust unless we know what that actually means to us and that we actually do something about that. This is not just a word, it's a way of being, it's the not just what you do, it's the who you are while you're doing it piece to me. So lot to do with the relationships and that spirit of transparency. And like I said, you can't trust people that you don't know.
Jason Clark (20:08): So how are you, this is a lot around the purpose of the company, right? And you're trying to purposely evoke an emotion from your customers and your employees, right? How are you partnering with marketing to make that happen?
Emily Heath (20:23): Yeah, so we're actually going through some branding and marketing right now and trust is one of our central pillars. DocuSign's been around for 18 or so years, and most people know us for the e-signature. And we've evolved way beyond that into what we call the agreement cloud and now the smart agreement cloud, trust is a fundamental part of that. And if you think about what people actually trust us with, all of their sensitive agreements, I mean their signatures for goodness sake. We're like if you can't trust us who can you trust? There's such an embedded element of that within who we are as an organization that it's been there from the very beginning of time for DocuSign, but we see now just how important that is in the fact that we are a part of our customer's ecosystem and we have to take that really seriously. So yeah, it's a lot about the culture and it's a lot about what matters to your organization. But like I said, it's the who you are while you're doing it piece as well.
Jason Clark (21:25): So as this unfortunate pandemic has happened for the last 18 months how has this changed and affected your role, and just obviously your employees at DocuSign as they try to engage and perform their duty?
Emily Heath (21:45): Yeah. So from the very beginning of COVID when that happened we already had a pretty large remote workforce, so thankfully we already had the technologies like the Slacks and the Zooms to support us so we were ahead of some companies in that respect. However, as we all know it's a definite shift when you've now got a full workforce who's all working remote on home computers and all of those kinds of things. I let the COVID, what we called the COVID 19 Task Force at the time, which was essentially classic crisis response, which is you get cross-functional teams together. At the very outset we were meeting multiple times a day, then we went to daily, and then we went to weekly meetings.
Emily Heath (22:27): But it was a way to bring the whole organization together from every department so that we could consider all the moving pieces across our employees and customers, because much like you and, and many other companies, we had lots of live events that we had to then transition to virtual. We had all of the employees to make sure that they've got all the equipment that they need, onboarding thousands of people since COVID. We've grown so much, we've onboarded thousands of people as new employees, and all that comes with a lot of logistics. So I think this is where CSOs and people who are used to dealing with crisis response are really best suited for these types of these types of initiatives. Because we kind of have that crisis response muscle where we are used to bringing cross-functional teams together to organize it. And it was just a, nobody asked me to do it I just kind of assumed the role and pulled the company together and played my part. And my team did and exceptional job as did the rest of the organization.
Emily Heath (23:32): But it's been tough I think for a lot of employees, just the same as every other company. Everyone's got a little COVID burnout fatigue and Zoom fatigue and all those things. We are taking this opportunity to really listen to our employees and see what they want. So we're highly likely to have a much more distributed workforce and a more remote workforce moving forward. We're going to be pretty much completely hoteling, so no dedicated desks or offices anymore. And that's what our employees want, they want the flexibility so we're taking that opportunity to give them just that.
Jason Clark (24:08): So there's no doubt it's been challenging. I've heard a lot of CSOs, and even using us an example myself and Lamont our CSO, it was a moment for him to step up. He has helped to lead and has been part of leading our COVID community, he also leads DNI as well. Just to say that this is our moment to make sure we're embracing and engaging our employees to the max we can. So I do think you're right, we have this muscle already. And so it's been really good for, I think in the end you think about just IT, forget security, being able to work from home would not have been really possible without IT, without digital, without technology, without VPN, without cloud. How would we have done this? We would've had to either made the decision of lose business or people will potentially have more vulnerability and more deaths. And so I think IT has been an interesting kind of quiet hero in this.
Emily Heath (25:19): And it's almost like as a society we've been forced to think differently. Many companies would never have taken the steps that they'd taken if we weren't all forced to be in this situation. And for us from a business perspective it's been incredible, of course. It's been great for our company's growth, but what really struck me at the very beginning of the pandemic was we were literally in the trenches with the state departments and the federal governments to try and move PPE around, you still need to do that with a signature. And there's this kind of common misconception I guess that the government agencies move so slow. Well sometimes yeah, but when they're forced into to a crisis in this way, the work that they did, and we had a front row seat to that, our customer support folks were working morning, noon, and night in the trenches with them to get them set up so that they could digitize and transform their own businesses and kind of these situations where we had to move equipment around. And it forced us all to pivot really quickly. And I think in some ways many companies have leapfrogged that digital transformation because now they see that they can do it.
Jason Clark (26:39): I've seen a lot of my own customer adoption to actual DocuSign. That's been a big part of their transformation. Especially healthcare, very, very big in healthcare. So transitioning to our next segment, which is called feeling vulnerable.
Jason Clark (27:04): And so in this segment we're going to kind of walk through kind of what are we trying to avoid? What are our vulnerabilities? And just again, just feeling vulnerable. Being very open, which we both already are in this conversation. So lot of times people measure risk differently. Like an example, sharks in the water. I was on vacation just two weeks go with a bunch of friends and there was a shark in the water. And one of the people I was with swam as fast as possible to the lifeguards like, there's a shark, there's a shark, there's a shark, yelling there's a shark to everybody. And everybody's just looking at this person and the lifeguard goes, yeah, we have sharks. They don't bite anybody. And it's like, what are you doing? Like, oh my gosh, we have to react to this. And I'm like, shark deaths are not a whole lot per year out of six or seven billion people.
Jason Clark (27:56): How much do you think that we are kind of maybe in security or IT making decision off of gut instinct versus really looking at the mathematics of the risk? Or just trying to drive check boxes? What's your thoughts on just maybe this issue amongst security in not really, like we buy product because everybody else is buying product, or were doing this because everybody else is doing this versus saying, was that the real issue? Is that the real risk? By the way, I just was the phone with somebody in a financial who said, we're doing segmentation because the auditors and the regulars say we have to, and I think it's the dumbest thing ever. Because I'm already segmented in the end, at the end point, and at the network layer, and I should be doing these other five projects but instead this is my biggest project of my year because the auditor and the regulators say I have to.
Emily Heath (28:42): Yeah, I can absolutely understand that. I think as much as we want to be science and data driven all the time, that's the ideal, right? You always want to have the data and the fact in front of you, but the truth of the matter is it's not always that tangible. And I think there are times when CSOs use their best judgment, and their experience, and their expertise in order to make decisions. Sometimes I think that's appropriate because otherwise, I mean at some point you've got to make a decision and move on. And those are the things sometimes you end up looking in the rear view mirror and go, did I make the right decision on this one or could I have done that differently? But at the time you don't always have the benefit I guess of weeks, or days, or months ahead of you to go collect all that data. And even if you wanted to it probably doesn't all exist.
Emily Heath (29:39): So there's a reality to the job that we do that's a little bit of art and a little bit of science that you have to use your best judgment in order to make those calls. I'm always an advocate for using data because a lot of the times what we try and do is explain situations to people who are not technical or explaining situations and translating them into operational or business risk, because ultimately that is our job. It's not always that straightforward to get data that will point you directly to a decision A, decision B, or decision C. So there's a little bit of an art and a science in what we do. And let's face it, if there was a book that you could pick off the shelf that showed a blueprint and how to do this job we would all love that. But the reality is that that just doesn't exist, we're facing new threats, and new adversaries, and new ways of operating every single day that you have to use your best judgment.
Emily Heath (30:38): And that comes from experience. Sometimes early in our careers we've made some decisions that perhaps weren't the best ones but we learn from it. And the big thing for me is this is why the security community is really special because we share things with each other when our lawyers tell us not to. We share things with each other because we care about one another and nobody wants to see anyone else in the headlines. I have never experienced, or seen, or heard of a community like this one. And it really is special, it's something else.
Jason Clark (31:10): That's amazing. I agree, there is nothing. We are one because, probably because we have a common enemy. And it is tremendous and it's in the end and why I think a lot of our us love this industry and have not changed industries. So it kind of, as we think through this a little bit to your point earlier, we're talking about this industry. We talked about part of the risks are security leaders leaving the industry, why do you think that is? Why do you think that they're saying, okay, you know what? I'm going to go do something different, I've done this three times now. We do love this industry but why are they leaving the operational CSO gig? Because it pays well, there's no doubt they can make seven figures. They're working at the top of their game so why are we seeing people leave these jobs to go, most of the time honestly take less money doing something else?
Emily Heath (32:11): Yeah, and I think it's a combination of what we were talking about earlier. Look, this job has gotten more visibility over the last few years without doubt, and that's something that you've heard CSO's beg for in the past and now I think that's all coming to fruition. And there's good sides and bad sides to that. You want all the visibility, you want the company to take it seriously, well guess what, they're taking it seriously. The flip side of that is the pressure that comes with it. This is a very high risk job. And it's a high risk job because we are managing programs that have so many facets and components that are not in our control. We rely on many, many different constituents to do things in certain ways in order for every body to succeed. I mean if you think about a lot of companies that have thousands of applications but let's say that the access controls were not up to snuff on 10 or 20 or 100 of those. It can't just be the CSO's fault, it's impossible. The CSO's one person, the security teams can only do so much.
Emily Heath (33:22): Y como resultado, sí, es un trabajo de mayor perfil, pero los riesgos son enormes. Creo que incluso ahora estás empezando a escuchar que las CSO están siendo demandadas. El juego está cambiando, este panorama está cambiando y llega a un punto en el que honestamente creo que las OSC van a ser algunos de los profesionales mejor pagados del futuro. Y ya se está dirigiendo en esa dirección en los últimos años, ya hemos visto muchos cambios. Pero este va a ser uno de los trabajos mejor pagados en los negocios porque llegará a un punto en el que no podrá pagar a la gente suficiente dinero para asumir esta cantidad de riesgo porque las demandas que podrían surgir él. Y empiezas a pensar en lo que eso significa para el papel, es un juego de pelota muy, muy diferente.
Emily Heath (34:12): Ahora está hablando en el ámbito de lo que la junta directiva suele ser responsable y los riesgos que conlleva, o los directores ejecutivos son responsables y el riesgo que conlleva, o los directores financieros para el caso. . Así que creo que el riesgo y la pura responsabilidad continúan aumentando y la gente sufre agotamiento. Y no todo es financiero, definitivamente hay un componente financiero, pero no todo es financiero. Llega un punto en el que es una calidad de vida y es duro, ¿no? No es una ruta fácil, no es un papel fácil. Como bien sabes, lo has hecho.
Jason Clark (34:52): No vale la pena. Sí, llega un punto en el que es como, está bien, lo he hecho varias veces, pero se está volviendo más difícil. Y está bien, he ahorrado suficiente, como acabas de decir. Y creo que las preocupaciones legales son preocupantes. Y no es como las CSO, una cosa que me sorprende es que no obtienen necesariamente el paracaídas en mis contratos. Puede que me esté poniendo genial [inaudible 00:35:20], pero también deberían estar protegidos. Tengo muchas conversaciones con CSO en las que los presionan para que decidan algo o firmen algo con lo que no están de acuerdo, pero lo miran y dicen, bueno, tengo esta casa cara y tengo una propiedad privada. escuela o lo que sea, y no puedo darme el lujo de decirle que no a mi jefe porque me iré entonces.
Jason Clark (35:41): Y eso no es bueno. Todos deberían estar protegidos de que si no está de acuerdo con su organización, quiere desafiarlos y está diciendo, no aprobaré ese riesgo, por lo que pueden estar protegidos, ¿tal vez es un estándar de ingresos de seis meses? Pero ahora mismo son dos o tres meses. Y he visto que eso sucede con demasiada frecuencia. Pero en general creo que estuve hablando con Jason Witty y es público que acaba de dejar JP Morgan. Es solo una cuestión de, podemos hacer mucho más con nuestra experiencia que podemos hacer con menos estrés potencialmente incluso, o incluso mayores ingresos cuando empiezas a hablar de lo que mencionaste, Emily, capital de riesgo. Pero lo que hacemos, hagamos lo que hagamos, debemos asegurarnos de que la próxima generación esté lista.
Emily Heath (36:44): Estoy protegida, cierto. Quiero decir que está llegando al punto de los problemas de responsabilidad, que los directores y funcionarios tienen cobertura de responsabilidad para eso, las OSC no. Entonces, se necesita tener una conversación diferente en algún momento, de lo contrario llegará a un punto en el que no podrá pagarle a la gente suficiente dinero para hacer este trabajo. Porque si el resultado final o la posible consecuencia de una acción que una OSC tomó de buena fe o una acción que otra persona no tomó, si la consecuencia podría resultar en que pierdan todo o Dios no lo quiera en la cárcel, no van a hacer que la gente en el trabajo siga haciendo eso.
Jason Clark (37:20): Exacto. Como si le dijeran que pague un rescate o si su liderazgo le dice que pague una recompensa. Así que sí, da miedo. Pero superaremos esto y, al final, creo que tú, yo y muchos otros tenemos que estar allí para ayudar a los demás. Cuando necesiten consejo, los asesoraremos, los respaldaremos. Entonces, para continuar, tenía curiosidad sobre este tema, ¿cómo es la vida de jubilación para usted?
Emily Heath (37:51): Todavía no he llegado, pero aún me queda mucho en el tanque. Pero la vida de retiro para mí es, no sé si alguna vez realmente me desconectaré de esta comunidad. Quiero decir que hoy me siento en una junta pública y en una junta privada, estoy en la junta de Norton LifeLock como una empresa que cotiza en bolsa y para Logic Gate, que es una empresa privada de plataforma GRC. Hay mucho valor para las OSC en la vida de la junta debido a la experiencia y la profundidad que tienen, y todavía es un área en la que hay una falta de comprensión, hay mucho valor para agregar. Así que estoy seguro de que eso seguirá siendo parte de mi futuro. Hago muchos consejos como tú, sin beneficio alguno, sin ningún beneficio financiero solo porque es una parte importante de, como dijiste, tenemos que ayudar a la próxima generación. Y no creo que eso desaparezca nunca. Habrá partes de eso. Un día haré la transición fuera de la vida operativa, pero aún no he llegado. Como dije, todavía tengo más en el tanque para mí. Pero me imagino que la jubilación parcial podría parecer servir en algunas juntas que imagino y hacer algún trabajo de asesoramiento y sin fines de lucro.
Jason Clark (39:07): Juntas, entrenamiento, asesoramiento, ayuda a la industria.
Emily Heath (39:10): Sí, exactamente.
Jason Clark (39:12): Sentado en una playa o en las montañas en algún lugar por un tiempo.
Emily Heath (39:15): Sí. Viajando por Europa tal vez, tal vez en Provenza o algo así. Recibir algunas llamadas de Zoom desde Provenza podría estar bien.
Jason Clark (39:21): Un poco. Sí, me gustaría, mi sueño es hacer eso todos los veranos y trabajar desde allí todos los veranos.
Emily Heath (39:29): Ahí lo tienes.
Jason Clark (39:31): Muy bien, así que estoy pensando en el futuro. Mientras hablamos de eso, si podemos avanzar en el tiempo, ¿en qué cree que las OSC desearían haber invertido que valdría la pena en el futuro? ¿Qué les sugeriría a todos, como pensar en cinco y 10 años a partir de ahora, cuáles son las inversiones más importantes que podrían estar haciendo aparte de las personas?
Emily Heath (40:04): Aparte de las personas, el seguro. Probablemente el seguro es uno de ellos bastante serio. Pero si está hablando de más tecnología, todavía hay muchas empresas que no están invirtiendo adecuadamente en seguridad en la nube. Hay bits de seguridad en la nube que tienen y personas que confían en la capacidad nativa de AWS y Azure, lo cual está bien hasta cierto punto, pero cuando el mundo se está volviendo completamente en la nube y todos se están alejando de bare metal, no puede confiar solo en el proveedores de nube establecidos, la pila de seguridad en torno a la configuración, los secretos, la administración y todo lo que viene con él. Me temo que muchas empresas solo están hablando de la boca para afuera sobre la seguridad en la nube honestamente.
Jason Clark (40:54): Creo que es, quiero decir, mi respuesta por cierto a mi propia pregunta sería creo que la seguridad de los datos. Como si se tratara de los datos, eso es lo que estamos protegiendo. DocuSign, son estas firmas, estos contratos, se trata de los datos y siento que en mis conversaciones somos muy inmaduros en el pensamiento de protección de datos porque estamos acostumbrados a los datos que se encuentran en nuestro centro de datos y tenemos este gran perímetro. Y creo que es un área muy poco invertida para comprender dónde están mis datos, ¿cómo se protegen? ¿Cuál es el riesgo allí? ¿Cuál es el impacto? ¿Qué tan sensible es? Todo eso porque prolifera.
Emily Heath (41:31): Son esas cinco preguntas otra vez, ¿verdad? Son esas cinco preguntas, ¿qué me importa más? ¿Dónde está? ¿Cómo lo estoy protegiendo? ¿Qué tan vulnerable y en riesgo estoy? ¿Y qué tan preparado estoy para cuando llegue el momento? Suena tan simple cuando se divide en eso, pero ahí están los fundamentos del programa de seguridad. Y es diferente para cada empresa. Y es difícil hacer eso, es difícil descubrir todo eso. Porque esas preguntas están completamente cargadas de suposiciones de que, oye, entiendes dónde están todos tus datos y entiendes los activos que los respaldan y, por cierto, ¿todos se están aprovisionando de la manera correcta? ¿Tienen toda la seguridad o todos los controles de acceso como deberían ser? Suena tan simple, pero no podía estar de acuerdo. Creo, y mucho de eso para nosotros lo traduzco a la nube porque obviamente es mucho de lo que van los entornos.
Jason Clark (42:19): Quiero decir, creo que la nube en cierto modo lo hace más difícil al principio porque no es donde están las soluciones, pero al final creo que nos lo pone más fácil. Como tenemos [inaudible 00:42:30], quiero decir que hay muchas cosas que puedes hacer. Así que es como un lugar extraño temporalmente, pero al final y en el futuro, creo que vamos a ser realmente buenos. Así que último segmento, accesos rápidos. Preguntas rápidas para usted y solo respuestas rápidas. ¿Entonces estas lista?
Emily Heath (42:54): Estoy lista, tráelo.
Jason Clark (42:57): Muy bien. ¿Qué talento o habilidad tienes que no está en tu currículum?
Emily Heath (43:02): Soy una sanadora de Reiki, una sanadora de Reiki entrenada.
Jason Clark (43:05): Wow, eso es genial.
Emily Heath (43:08): Algo completamente diferente.
Jason Clark (43:10): Ni siquiera sé qué es eso. ¿Qué es eso, Emilio?
Emily Heath (43:13): Es una técnica de sanación práctica, eso es lo que es.
Jason Clark (43:15): Oh, genial. Voy a investigarlo. Entonces, segundo, si no estuviera en redes y seguridad, ¿qué estaría haciendo?
Emily Heath (43:23): Sería chef. Me encanta cocinar. Simplemente, es mi atasco, es cómo me relajo. Simplemente, me encanta hacer feliz a la gente con la comida.
Jason Clark (43:34): Y sé que esta es una pregunta difícil porque yo también soy chef y es muy, pero ¿cuál es tu tipo de cocina favorita?
Emily Heath (43:43): Oh, eso es difícil. He estado perfeccionando mi receta boloñesa durante unos 15 años porque la comida italiana es simplemente la mejor. Quiero decir que a veces soy un poco amante de los carbohidratos, pero la comida italiana es lo mejor para mí.
Jason Clark (44:01): Oh hombre, el mío probablemente sea asiático. Solo asiático, muchos sabores asiáticos. Pero tenemos que reunirnos en algún momento en la costa de Amalfi en algún lugar y pasar el rato y pasar un buen-
Emily Heath (44:15): Hagámoslo.
Jason Clark (44:18): Y última pregunta, ¿cuál sería su principal consejo para un CSO primerizo?
Emily Heath (44:23): Oh, diría que pida ayuda. Como mencionamos anteriormente, esta comunidad es increíble y hay muchas personas dispuestas y capaces de ayudarlo en su viaje. Ojalá hubiera pedido más ayuda al principio y tenido un poco más de humildad para saber que no lo tengo todo resuelto. Y ese es un gran error que las personas que ingresan a esta carrera piensan que tienen que saberlo todo, que deben conocer todas estas piezas en movimiento. Es imposible hacer eso. Quiero decir, si tuviéramos que aplicar ingeniería inversa al malware, soy la peor persona del mundo para hacer eso, tengo personas muy inteligentes en mi equipo que pueden hacerlo. No hay forma de que pueda saberlo todo. Así que pides ayuda, pides orientación. Hay tantos líderes dispuestos e increíbles en esta comunidad de OSC que estarán ansiosos por ayudarlo en su camino, así que no tenga miedo de pedir ayuda.
Jason Clark (45:17): Me encanta, es increíble. Así que mira, eso es todo el tiempo que tenemos. Emily, esto ha sido increíble. Y amo cada conversación que tenemos y siento que probablemente podríamos haber ido durante cuatro horas fácilmente. Antes de que te deje ir, si la gente quiere pedir ayuda, si quiere comprometerse contigo para recibir alguna tutoría o lo que sea, ¿cuál es la mejor manera de que se comprometan contigo?
Emily Heath (45:44): Sí, hacerme ping en LinkedIn es la forma más fácil. Es la forma más rápida y fácil. Hay muchas redes en las que ya estoy involucrado y soy mentor y entrenador de mucha gente, y sé que tú también lo haces, Jason. También das mucho de tu tiempo a esta comunidad. Y aunque no podemos enfrentarnos a 100 personas, lo que me encanta es que si tienes una avenida y un lugar donde puedes ir y preguntar, oye, estoy luchando con esto, ¿qué hiciste en ¿esta situación? Por cierto, hago eso todo el tiempo con las OSC. Si hay algo con lo que estoy luchando, hago lo mismo, me comunico con mis amigos y les digo, mira, esto es algo con lo que realmente estoy luchando, ¿cómo lo hiciste? Entonces diría que se comuniquen conmigo en LinkedIn, háganme un ping en Twitter. Muchos de ustedes ya tienen mi dirección de correo electrónico y mi número de teléfono celular. Pero sí, estoy aquí por la comunidad y también quiero agradecer a la comunidad por estar ahí para mí también.
Jason Clark (46:36): Perfecto. Bueno, gracias y gracias a todos por acompañarnos.
Emily Heath (46:40): Gracias, Jason.
Patrocinador (46:43): El podcast Security Visionaries está impulsado por el equipo de Netskope. ¿Está buscando la plataforma de seguridad en la nube adecuada para permitir su viaje de transformación digital? Netskope Security Cloud lo ayuda a conectar usuarios de forma segura y rápida directamente a Internet desde cualquier dispositivo a cualquier aplicación. Obtenga más información en Netskope.
Productor (47:04): Gracias por escuchar Security Visionaries, tómese un momento para calificar y revisar el programa y compartirlo con alguien que conozca. Estén atentos a los nuevos episodios que se lanzan cada dos semanas, y nos vemos en el próximo episodio.
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