Emily Heath (00:00): This landscape is changing and it comes to a point where I honestly believe CSOs are going to be some of the highest paid professionals in the future, and it's already heading in that direction over the last few years. We've seen a lot of change already, but this is going to be one of the most highest paid jobs in business because it will get to a point that you're not going to be able to pay people enough money to take on this amount of risk.
Producer (00:25): Hello and welcome to Security Visionaries, hosted by Jason Clark, chief security officer and chief strategy officer at Netskope. You just heard from today's guest Emily Heath, senior vice president and chief trust and security officer at DocuSign. It's been said that you don't get paid for how much you work, but for how much responsibility you have. And in today's modern business world managing risk is a massive responsibility. As cybersecurity threats dominate the headlines the role of security leads, whether they're chief security officers or chief information security officer, becomes one of the most important functions in the C-suite.
Producer (01:06): They're responsible for safeguarding the data, money, and everything else vital to the business. The role is anything but easy, and as Emily points out, individuals capable of shouldering this burden are going to become some of the most sought after executives in the world. And Emily isn't backing down from the challenge. In fact, she's encouraging her fellow CSOs not to either. Before her tenure as DocuSign's chief trust and security officer, Emily served as CSO for United Airlines and AECOM, held various other technology and strategy leadership roles, and began her career as a fraud squad detective in the UK police force. But before we dive in and hear more from Emily, here's a word from our sponsor.
Sponsor (01:50): The Security Visionaries Podcast is powered by the team at Netskope. Netskope is the sassy leader offering everything you need to provide a fast, data centric, and cloud smart user experience at the speed of business today. Learn more at netskope.com.
Producer (02:08): Without further ado, please enjoy episode three of Security Visionaries with your host Jason Clark and Emily Heath, senior vice president and chief trust and security officer at DocuSign.
Jason Clark (02:21): So welcome to Security Visionaries, I am your CSO at Netskope. Today I am joined by a very special guest and good friend, Emily Heath. Emily, how are you?
Emily Heath (02:31): Jason, always a pleasure to see you. Doing well, thanks.
Jason Clark (02:34): I was thinking about this conversation. I'm thinking, when did I meet Emily? Do you remember when the first time we ever met was?
Emily Heath (02:42): God, now you're going by a few years, buddy. Probably, I don't know was it Security Advisors Alliance in Dallas?
Jason Clark (02:51): Right.
Emily Heath (02:51): Right? Yeah, it was.
Jason Clark (02:53): Yes, the Advisor Alliance in Dallas and I remember you, I remember it was actually at the bar and we both were ordering I think it was
.
Emily Heath (03:02): That would be a good choice.
Jason Clark (03:05): And then we were like, hey, and we just kind of started talking. I think that was probably six or seven years ago.
Emily Heath (03:09): Yeah.
Jason Clark (03:10): So getting started what was your first, tell us about your first security job.
Emily Heath (03:14): Oh my gosh. Well my very first security job goes way back 25, 30 years or so. I used to be a police officer in England, I was a detective for many years. And this is kind of about the era when cyber wasn't really a thing back then but computer crime was starting to be a thing. And so I worked in the financial crimes unit in what we called the fraud squad, and that was the unit that was responsible for computer crime. And it was completely foreign to me at the time, I mean going back in those days you used to go do a raid on a business or a home, and you'd come out with hundreds of bankers boxes full of contracts and documents. And it's just such a turn to see how that now is all translated to cyber. But I like to think that from a cyber perspective that was probably the very first job trying to dissect computers.
Jason Clark (04:09): And tell us a little bit about your job today and your current role at DocuSign.
Emily Heath (04:12): Yeah, so my job at DocuSign now is a little varied actually. So I'm the chief trust and security officer, so there's a couple of sides to that. There's the usual cyber security related stuff that you would imagine, security architecture, engineering, security operations, and all of those things. I also have the governance risk and compliance group. I have fraud, physical security, health and safety as well. And then the trust side of the job is actually a very customer facing side of the job. So DocuSign as many people know is a really trusted platform because we're a part of our customer's ecosystem, security and trust is super important. So I spent a ton of time with customers now, which I love.
Jason Clark (04:53): I think that's something that's going to continue to evolve for every company that is a [inaudible 00:05:00] technology organization. [inaudible 00:05:02] economy that is, the chief trust and security officer being very engaged with the customers will come, I think, the norm.
Emily Heath (05:11): Yeah, exactly.
Jason Clark (05:12): So getting, our first kind of segment here is taboo topics.
Jason Clark (05:26): Well this segment's about security taboos, misconceptions, controversy. And by the way, you can ask me anything, bring up anything you want to bring up. But the first question for you on this is what do you believe is the fastest growing risk in cyber security today, right? That effects most companies?
Emily Heath (05:43): Yeah. God, there's so many of them it's hard to choose one. I think ransomware is the one that just brings to mind just because you think about the monetization of crime when it comes to cyber, these attacks are no longer just to inconvenience organizations or bragging rights, there's a lot of money in this crime. Long gone are the days where somebody walks into a bank with a [inaudible 00:06:07] shotgun and walks away with $20,000 at best. I mean you're talking millions and tens of millions for these types of crimes. So I think ransom is, we're just seeing the beginning of it. And the more and more you see that companies are paying ransoms, it's just going to proliferate the problem. So it's a trend unfortunately I don't think is going anywhere anytime soon.
Jason Clark (06:30): So it's the new bank robber basically, right?
Emily Heath (06:34): Yeah.
Jason Clark (06:34): So what's your thoughts around, kind of this feeling like this taboo topic, what do you feel around should companies be paying the ransom or not be paying the ransom? What should legislation be around that?
Emily Heath (06:45): God, it's such a tough one. I don't even know where the legislation can be involved in that. It's a really slippery slope because there's a cost of doing business, and if this becomes a new cost of doing business, I mean I'm not advocating for it in any way shape or form, but every organization is different and until it hits you and until your operations are the ones that are crippled, it's really difficult to say whether or not you should or shouldn't pay a ransom. I mean we all know that there's never any guarantee that you're going to get out the other side of it anyway. But if you look at some of the companies recently that have paid ransoms, we are not in the room, we don't know the impact to their actual business function. And I just, I'm not sure whether this is going to end up being a legislation issue, it's a business issue.
Jason Clark (07:34): Yeah. I mean sometimes it can mean lives, right? I mean getting electricity turned back on or getting the medical systems you need turned back on, that shouldn't be a choice that is made because of a law, right? And when you look at it, ransom is obviously a very, very hard problem and we just need to obviously get better at everything. I think, curious like if you think about ransoms, okay that's one, but what's one that you think people are not aware of? What's the fastest growing risk as a CSO? What do you think is growing that a lot of IT organizations, a lot of boards are unaware of? So ransoms in the news every single day, but is there anything else that you can think of that is a rapid growing risk that you think those leaders should be aware of?
Emily Heath (08:24): Yeah, there is a little bit of a theme right now where you're seeing a lot of experienced security professionals leaving the industry. And my fear is that there's going to be a big hole, right? This business has been around for a while but certainly not to the magnitude that it has been over the last four or five years or so. And a lot of the security professionals are leaving the industry to go vendor side, or they're leaving to go to a VC side. The talent and expertise that is leaving the security jobs is frightening. Don't know how you solve that necessarily apart from, as a leader it's our job to make sure that we are investing in the leaders of tomorrow. And I think as an organization I'm not sure there's this great organizational awareness to the big talent gap for senior leaders in the security business and really super talented folks, who honestly are moving to the vendor side and moving to the VC side because quite frankly there's more money in it.
Jason Clark (09:25): Let's talk about this a little later because we talk about the future but I think it's, there's more money but also the CSO job is extremely hard, very, very hard and very taxing.
Emily Heath (09:37): Super stressful.
Jason Clark (09:37): I mean there's many, many friends where they've been like, look Jason, I've given up my last vacation, or I was the best, Dave Fairman at RBC, he said, Jason, I was the best man at a wedding and I was told either go to the wedding or stay here, but if you go to the wedding you won't have a job. And that is emotionally taxing. So I think we're ending up in this where the threats are getting worse, the problem's getting harder, there's more data than ever, we have 57 zettabytes of data in the world and by 2025 there'll be 175 zettabytes. So I think as you think about that attack surface growing, and to your point the people are getting harder to find, that is, so I love that you pointed that out. I think that's a great unknown risk as you just said. So kind of going into a little bit of a deep dive.
Jason Clark (10:46): Maybe walk us through how you pivoted from in the Cheshire police to cyber, talk us through that transition.
Emily Heath (10:55): When I was a detective I took a career break for a while, and you can take a career break up to three years. And I did and the punchline is I taught myself how to code, don't tell anyone. But I taught myself how to code and I actually started my own web design business during the career break. By the time I went back to the police I realized that there was a big world out there and a world that I really wanted to explore. And so one of my former web clients actually called me one day and said, hey, are you interested in this opportunity at MGM studios in London? And it was working for a startup back in the days when DVDs were a thing, it was a startup that managed all of the DVD distribution and supply chain and inventory management for the movie studios. So I left the force, I left law enforcement and did that job. It was not a security job. I did many different areas of IT and technology before I kind of did full circle all the way back to security.
Emily Heath (11:48): But I was the lead program manager on a software implementation for the studios, that's how I ended up in the US maybe, almost 20 years ago now, working with MGM who got acquired by Sony Pictures, so I worked with Sony for many years. And then ultimately when that little thing called PCI came along, and I'd been running infrastructure teams, PMOs, web design teams, and engineers, my boss at the time said, hey, Emily, you were a cop. You were a cop, weren't you? You understand the law, can you figure out this encryption thing and this PCI thing, these laws that are coming in? So it was really purely by accident that I ended getting into more of a legal, compliance, security type role. But it's funny how you look back on your career and your life and you realize that it's all one big jigsaw puzzle. You don't realize at the time how one thing leads to the next. And then when you look back you realize, my gosh, I would not be set up for success in this job had I not done that job.
Emily Heath (12:50): And so it felt like coming home to me, my experience in technology coupled with experience in law enforcement. And they're two very different things, but the skill sets that you bring with you from law enforcement, the skill sets were a lot about people. It was, you're dealing with people from all walks of life. And I translate that to the constituents within an organization, right? I mean we deal with so many different stakeholders from so many different business units, and managing to navigate the corporate world is very much like law enforcement, you're just managing different characters. So it really did feel like coming home to me and I took a very deliberate path to choose the CSO route and not the CIO route. I had opportunities a few years ago to go one way or the other and I chose this route, and I chose the right one for me personally.
Jason Clark (13:44): I'm constantly asked by CSO's, I coach about 15 different CSOs and I'm asked, hey, I've got this opportunity to become the CIO or the interim CIO. And I actually generally coach them no. Focus on CSO, focus on security as a specialty that is going to grow increasing importance. And I basically tell them that financially I believe they'll make more or the same. You talked about kind of a little bit of your experience with PCI, I thank PCI to the start of my career as well. I was out of the army and the New York Times got compromised, and I got the CSO job at the New York Times when I was 27 years old because they needed to have a CSO title and it was driven by loss of credit cards and for one of their business units and I was asked to step in. And when else can a 27 year old with cybersecurity experience and the fact that I had management experience because I was military, I mean it's insane. That would not happen today, a 27 year old being a CSO that quickly. So I thank PCI as well.
Emily Heath (14:53): Yeah, I know. It's like the people ask why did you choose cyber as a career? And I said, I didn't choose it, it chose me. Definitely twists and turns.
Jason Clark (15:04): It's been amazing. So you were the CSO, we met when you were the CSO for United Airlines, and you had tremendous responsibilities there. What are the differences and the similarities between that and your current role at DocuSign?
Emily Heath (15:22): Yeah. So, I mean United Airlines I don't think it gets much more complicated than a huge, big, global airline. Just the sheer scale and complexity of an organization like that is incredible. And obviously it's a much bigger company than coming to DocuSign, so the differences of scale and complexity are very, very different, however the types of issues that we deal with are very much the same. And no matter where I go, or any company, or advice I give to other CSO friends who are joining new companies, I ask myself five fundamental questions, which really doesn't matter which organization that you're in. And it really comes down to what's most important to you first and foremost? A company like United, what's most important is human life. You're flying people, safety is number one. A company like DocuSign, we're a very data driven company so the agreements that people trust us with are what matter to us the most.
Emily Heath (16:19): So what matters most? Where is it? How are you securing it? Where are you most vulnerable and at risk? And how resilient are you when it hits the fan and you need to bounce back? And I think if you go into any new job and ask yourself those five questions, doesn't matter what company it is, doesn't matter what entity it is, those five questions are still very relevant. Because if you understand what matters to you the most you've got a framework to prioritize the task that's undoubtedly ahead of you. So the challenges are the same, it's the same kind of people, same kind of adversaries, scale and complexity is very different, but how you run a security program is fundamentally the same thing.
Jason Clark (17:06): Yeah, 100%. It's just different complexities. Scale is one but then when you're a company you have a different set, and it isn't harder or easier. When you said, when it hits the fan, I love how you said when it hits the fan, I quickly imagined the scene in Airplane, the movie Airplane, right? Where the shit literally did hit the fan, that's what I picture [inaudible 00:17:35]. So look, I love your title, chief trust and security officer. So talk to us a little bit about what additional responsibilities you have and how this changes the way either your company or your customers perceive you with the word trust in there?
Emily Heath (17:53): Yeah. So trust to me is, the security side is what we all understand. It's securing the nuts and bolts and securing the technology and all those things. When you start layering in this concept of trust it's about that intangible. It's the relationships that you're building with people. So when we are building relationships with customers, you cannot trust people that you don't know. So therefore the time I spend with customers is to build relationships with them because I see it as my duty and my obligation to be completely transparent about what we're doing. I think the foundations of how you build trust are truly embedded in that. So I'm not talking about just zero trust as a framework or trust as in what we traditionally have called trust within the security realms, it goes way beyond that to me. It really is a lot about the, you've got to walk your walk. You've got to show up. You've got to be transparent. You've got to be upfront and be honest.
Emily Heath (18:54): And it's actually more than just security. So for example, I also help run our ESG program, the environmental, social, and governance program. Because as part of the chief trust officer role it's not just security, what are the other element of trust and what does that mean to your organization? So I get heavily involved in topics like DNI, I'm a huge advocate of diversity and inclusion and belonging, as you know. The ESG type programs that any organization runs, that all falls under a trust umbrella. So it's really broader than just the traditional security, physical security, cybersecurity type realms because it's about your organization's trust and what that means to your customers, your partners, and your employees.
Emily Heath (19:40): So it's something that we are evolving like every other company. I feel very strongly that we shouldn't be using words like trust unless we know what that actually means to us and that we actually do something about that. This is not just a word, it's a way of being, it's the not just what you do, it's the who you are while you're doing it piece to me. So lot to do with the relationships and that spirit of transparency. And like I said, you can't trust people that you don't know.
Jason Clark (20:08): So how are you, this is a lot around the purpose of the company, right? And you're trying to purposely evoke an emotion from your customers and your employees, right? How are you partnering with marketing to make that happen?
Emily Heath (20:23): Yeah, so we're actually going through some branding and marketing right now and trust is one of our central pillars. DocuSign's been around for 18 or so years, and most people know us for the e-signature. And we've evolved way beyond that into what we call the agreement cloud and now the smart agreement cloud, trust is a fundamental part of that. And if you think about what people actually trust us with, all of their sensitive agreements, I mean their signatures for goodness sake. We're like if you can't trust us who can you trust? There's such an embedded element of that within who we are as an organization that it's been there from the very beginning of time for DocuSign, but we see now just how important that is in the fact that we are a part of our customer's ecosystem and we have to take that really seriously. So yeah, it's a lot about the culture and it's a lot about what matters to your organization. But like I said, it's the who you are while you're doing it piece as well.
Jason Clark (21:25): So as this unfortunate pandemic has happened for the last 18 months how has this changed and affected your role, and just obviously your employees at DocuSign as they try to engage and perform their duty?
Emily Heath (21:45): Yeah. So from the very beginning of COVID when that happened we already had a pretty large remote workforce, so thankfully we already had the technologies like the Slacks and the Zooms to support us so we were ahead of some companies in that respect. However, as we all know it's a definite shift when you've now got a full workforce who's all working remote on home computers and all of those kinds of things. I let the COVID, what we called the COVID 19 Task Force at the time, which was essentially classic crisis response, which is you get cross-functional teams together. At the very outset we were meeting multiple times a day, then we went to daily, and then we went to weekly meetings.
Emily Heath (22:27): But it was a way to bring the whole organization together from every department so that we could consider all the moving pieces across our employees and customers, because much like you and, and many other companies, we had lots of live events that we had to then transition to virtual. We had all of the employees to make sure that they've got all the equipment that they need, onboarding thousands of people since COVID. We've grown so much, we've onboarded thousands of people as new employees, and all that comes with a lot of logistics. So I think this is where CSOs and people who are used to dealing with crisis response are really best suited for these types of these types of initiatives. Because we kind of have that crisis response muscle where we are used to bringing cross-functional teams together to organize it. And it was just a, nobody asked me to do it I just kind of assumed the role and pulled the company together and played my part. And my team did and exceptional job as did the rest of the organization.
Emily Heath (23:32): But it's been tough I think for a lot of employees, just the same as every other company. Everyone's got a little COVID burnout fatigue and Zoom fatigue and all those things. We are taking this opportunity to really listen to our employees and see what they want. So we're highly likely to have a much more distributed workforce and a more remote workforce moving forward. We're going to be pretty much completely hoteling, so no dedicated desks or offices anymore. And that's what our employees want, they want the flexibility so we're taking that opportunity to give them just that.
Jason Clark (24:08): So there's no doubt it's been challenging. I've heard a lot of CSOs, and even using us an example myself and Lamont our CSO, it was a moment for him to step up. He has helped to lead and has been part of leading our COVID community, he also leads DNI as well. Just to say that this is our moment to make sure we're embracing and engaging our employees to the max we can. So I do think you're right, we have this muscle already. And so it's been really good for, I think in the end you think about just IT, forget security, being able to work from home would not have been really possible without IT, without digital, without technology, without VPN, without cloud. How would we have done this? We would've had to either made the decision of lose business or people will potentially have more vulnerability and more deaths. And so I think IT has been an interesting kind of quiet hero in this.
Emily Heath (25:19): And it's almost like as a society we've been forced to think differently. Many companies would never have taken the steps that they'd taken if we weren't all forced to be in this situation. And for us from a business perspective it's been incredible, of course. It's been great for our company's growth, but what really struck me at the very beginning of the pandemic was we were literally in the trenches with the state departments and the federal governments to try and move PPE around, you still need to do that with a signature. And there's this kind of common misconception I guess that the government agencies move so slow. Well sometimes yeah, but when they're forced into to a crisis in this way, the work that they did, and we had a front row seat to that, our customer support folks were working morning, noon, and night in the trenches with them to get them set up so that they could digitize and transform their own businesses and kind of these situations where we had to move equipment around. And it forced us all to pivot really quickly. And I think in some ways many companies have leapfrogged that digital transformation because now they see that they can do it.
Jason Clark (26:39): I've seen a lot of my own customer adoption to actual DocuSign. That's been a big part of their transformation. Especially healthcare, very, very big in healthcare. So transitioning to our next segment, which is called feeling vulnerable.
Jason Clark (27:04): And so in this segment we're going to kind of walk through kind of what are we trying to avoid? What are our vulnerabilities? And just again, just feeling vulnerable. Being very open, which we both already are in this conversation. So lot of times people measure risk differently. Like an example, sharks in the water. I was on vacation just two weeks go with a bunch of friends and there was a shark in the water. And one of the people I was with swam as fast as possible to the lifeguards like, there's a shark, there's a shark, there's a shark, yelling there's a shark to everybody. And everybody's just looking at this person and the lifeguard goes, yeah, we have sharks. They don't bite anybody. And it's like, what are you doing? Like, oh my gosh, we have to react to this. And I'm like, shark deaths are not a whole lot per year out of six or seven billion people.
Jason Clark (27:56): How much do you think that we are kind of maybe in security or IT making decision off of gut instinct versus really looking at the mathematics of the risk? Or just trying to drive check boxes? What's your thoughts on just maybe this issue amongst security in not really, like we buy product because everybody else is buying product, or were doing this because everybody else is doing this versus saying, was that the real issue? Is that the real risk? By the way, I just was the phone with somebody in a financial who said, we're doing segmentation because the auditors and the regulars say we have to, and I think it's the dumbest thing ever. Because I'm already segmented in the end, at the end point, and at the network layer, and I should be doing these other five projects but instead this is my biggest project of my year because the auditor and the regulators say I have to.
Emily Heath (28:42): Yeah, I can absolutely understand that. I think as much as we want to be science and data driven all the time, that's the ideal, right? You always want to have the data and the fact in front of you, but the truth of the matter is it's not always that tangible. And I think there are times when CSOs use their best judgment, and their experience, and their expertise in order to make decisions. Sometimes I think that's appropriate because otherwise, I mean at some point you've got to make a decision and move on. And those are the things sometimes you end up looking in the rear view mirror and go, did I make the right decision on this one or could I have done that differently? But at the time you don't always have the benefit I guess of weeks, or days, or months ahead of you to go collect all that data. And even if you wanted to it probably doesn't all exist.
Emily Heath (29:39): So there's a reality to the job that we do that's a little bit of art and a little bit of science that you have to use your best judgment in order to make those calls. I'm always an advocate for using data because a lot of the times what we try and do is explain situations to people who are not technical or explaining situations and translating them into operational or business risk, because ultimately that is our job. It's not always that straightforward to get data that will point you directly to a decision A, decision B, or decision C. So there's a little bit of an art and a science in what we do. And let's face it, if there was a book that you could pick off the shelf that showed a blueprint and how to do this job we would all love that. But the reality is that that just doesn't exist, we're facing new threats, and new adversaries, and new ways of operating every single day that you have to use your best judgment.
Emily Heath (30:38): And that comes from experience. Sometimes early in our careers we've made some decisions that perhaps weren't the best ones but we learn from it. And the big thing for me is this is why the security community is really special because we share things with each other when our lawyers tell us not to. We share things with each other because we care about one another and nobody wants to see anyone else in the headlines. I have never experienced, or seen, or heard of a community like this one. And it really is special, it's something else.
Jason Clark (31:10): That's amazing. I agree, there is nothing. We are one because, probably because we have a common enemy. And it is tremendous and it's in the end and why I think a lot of our us love this industry and have not changed industries. So it kind of, as we think through this a little bit to your point earlier, we're talking about this industry. We talked about part of the risks are security leaders leaving the industry, why do you think that is? Why do you think that they're saying, okay, you know what? I'm going to go do something different, I've done this three times now. We do love this industry but why are they leaving the operational CSO gig? Because it pays well, there's no doubt they can make seven figures. They're working at the top of their game so why are we seeing people leave these jobs to go, most of the time honestly take less money doing something else?
Emily Heath (32:11): Yeah, and I think it's a combination of what we were talking about earlier. Look, this job has gotten more visibility over the last few years without doubt, and that's something that you've heard CSO's beg for in the past and now I think that's all coming to fruition. And there's good sides and bad sides to that. You want all the visibility, you want the company to take it seriously, well guess what, they're taking it seriously. The flip side of that is the pressure that comes with it. This is a very high risk job. And it's a high risk job because we are managing programs that have so many facets and components that are not in our control. We rely on many, many different constituents to do things in certain ways in order for every body to succeed. I mean if you think about a lot of companies that have thousands of applications but let's say that the access controls were not up to snuff on 10 or 20 or 100 of those. It can't just be the CSO's fault, it's impossible. The CSO's one person, the security teams can only do so much.
Emily Heath (33:22): Und aus diesem Grund ist es zwar ein Job mit höherem Bekanntheitsgrad, aber die Risiken sind enorm. Ich glaube, dass man jetzt schon hört, dass CSOs verklagt werden. Das Spiel verändert sich, diese Landschaft verändert sich und es kommt zu einem Punkt, an dem ich ehrlich davon überzeugt bin, dass CSOs in Zukunft zu den bestbezahlten Fachkräften gehören werden. Und es geht in den letzten Jahren bereits in diese Richtung, wir haben bereits viele Veränderungen gesehen. Aber dies wird einer der bestbezahlten Jobs in der Wirtschaft sein, weil man irgendwann den Punkt erreichen wird, an dem man den Leuten nicht mehr genug Geld zahlen kann, um dieses Risiko auf sich zu nehmen, weil die Klagen damit einhergehen könnten Es. Und man beginnt darüber nachzudenken, was das für die Rolle bedeutet, es ist ein ganz, ganz anderes Spiel.
Emily Heath (34:12): Sie sprechen jetzt davon, wofür Vorstände normalerweise verantwortlich sind und welche Risiken damit einhergehen, oder wofür CEOs verantwortlich sind und welche Risiken damit einhergehen, oder was CFOs betrifft . Ich denke also, dass das Risiko und die bloße Verantwortung weiter steigen und die Menschen unter Burnout leiden. Und es ist nicht nur finanzieller Natur, es gibt definitiv eine finanzielle Komponente, aber es ist nicht nur finanzieller Natur. Irgendwann kommt der Punkt, an dem es um Lebensqualität geht und es schwierig ist, nicht wahr? Es ist kein einfacher Weg, es ist keine einfache Rolle. Wie Sie wissen, haben Sie es geschafft.
Jason Clark (34:52): Das ist es nicht wert. Ja, irgendwann kommt der Punkt, an dem man denkt: Okay, ich habe das schon mehrere Male gemacht, aber es wird immer schwieriger. Und okay, ich habe genug gespart, wie du gerade gesagt hast. Und ich denke, die rechtlichen Bedenken sind besorgniserregend. Und es ist nicht wie bei CSOs. Eine Sache, die mich überrascht, ist, dass sie in meinen Verträgen nicht unbedingt den Fallschirm bekommen. Mir geht es vielleicht großartig [unhörbar 00:35:20], aber sie sollten auch geschützt werden. Ich führe viele Gespräche mit CSOs, in denen sie dazu gedrängt werden, etwas zu entscheiden oder zu unterzeichnen, mit dem sie nicht einverstanden sind, aber sie sehen es sich an und sagen: „Nun, ich habe dieses teure Haus und ich habe ein Privathaus.“ Ich muss zur Schule gehen oder was auch immer, und ich kann es mir nicht leisten, zu meinem Chef Nein zu sagen, weil ich dann weg bin.
Jason Clark (35:41): Und das ist nicht gut. Sie sollten alle geschützt werden, dass Sie, wenn Sie mit Ihrer Organisation nicht einverstanden sind, sie herausfordern möchten und sagen: „Ich werde dieses Risiko nicht akzeptieren, für das sie geschützt werden können, vielleicht ist es ein Standard von sechs Monatseinkommen?“ Aber im Moment sind es zwei bis drei Monate. Und das habe ich viel zu oft erlebt. Aber im Großen und Ganzen denke ich, dass ich mit Jason Witty gesprochen habe und es ist öffentlich, dass er gerade die JP Morgan verlassen hat. Es geht nur darum, dass wir mit unserem Fachwissen so viel mehr erreichen können, dass wir möglicherweise sogar mit weniger Stress oder sogar höherem Einkommen, wenn Sie über das von Ihnen erwähnte Risikokapital sprechen, Emily, sogar höhere Einnahmen erreichen können. Aber was auch immer wir tun, wir müssen sicherstellen, dass die nächste Generation bereit ist.
Emily Heath (36:44): Ich bin beschützt, richtig. Ich meine, es kommt zum Punkt der Haftungsfrage: Direktoren und leitende Angestellte haben dafür eine Haftpflichtversicherung, CSOs jedoch nicht. Irgendwann muss also ein anderes Gespräch geführt werden, sonst kommt es zu einem Punkt, an dem man den Leuten nicht mehr genug Geld zahlen kann, um diese Arbeit zu erledigen. Denn wenn das Endergebnis oder die mögliche Konsequenz einer Handlung, die ein CSO in gutem Glauben ergriffen hat, oder einer Handlung, die jemand anderes nicht ergriffen hat, dazu führen könnte, dass er alles verliert oder, Gott bewahre, ins Gefängnis kommt, dann werden Sie das nicht tun Bringen Sie die Leute im Job dazu, das nicht mehr zu tun.
Jason Clark (37:20): Genau. Zum Beispiel, wenn Sie von Ihrer Führung aufgefordert werden, ein Lösegeld zu zahlen, oder wenn Sie von Ihrer Führung aufgefordert werden, ein Kopfgeld zu zahlen. Also ja, es ist beängstigend. Aber wir werden das durchstehen und am Ende denke ich, dass du und ich und viele andere einfach für andere da sein müssen. Wenn sie Rat brauchen, coachen wir sie und stehen ihnen zur Seite. Als nächstes war ich neugierig auf dieses Thema: Wie sieht das Ruhestandsleben für Sie aus?
Emily Heath (37:51): Ich bin noch nicht ganz am Ziel, aber ich habe noch viel im Tank. Aber das Ruhestandsleben bedeutet für mich, dass ich nicht weiß, ob ich mich jemals wirklich von dieser Gemeinschaft trennen werde. Ich meine, ich sitze heute in einem öffentlichen und einem privaten Vorstand, ich bin im Vorstand von Norton LifeLock, einem börsennotierten Unternehmen, und von Logic Gate, einem privaten GRC-Plattformunternehmen. Für CSOs ist das Vorstandsleben aufgrund der Erfahrung und Tiefe, die sie haben, sehr wertvoll. Es ist ein Bereich, in dem es immer noch an Verständnis mangelt, und es gibt so viel Mehrwert, den man hinzufügen kann. Ich bin mir also sicher, dass das auch weiterhin ein Teil meiner Zukunft sein wird. Ich berate viel, genau wie Sie, ohne jeglichen Nutzen, ohne finanziellen Nutzen, nur weil es ein wichtiger Teil davon ist, wie Sie sagten, wir müssen der nächsten Generation helfen. Und ich glaube nicht, dass das jemals verschwinden wird. Davon wird es Teile geben. Eines Tages werde ich aus dem operativen Leben herauskommen, aber ich bin noch nicht so weit. Wie gesagt, ich habe noch mehr im Tank. Aber ich könnte mir vorstellen, dass die Teilpensionierung so aussehen könnte, als würde man in ein paar Vorständen mitarbeiten, die ich mir vorstellen würde, und gemeinnützige und beratende Arbeit leisten.
Jason Clark (39:07): Vorstände, Coaching, Beratung, Unterstützung der Branche.
Emily Heath (39:10): Ja, genau.
Jason Clark (39:12): Eine Weile am Strand oder in den Bergen sitzen.
Emily Heath (39:15): Ja. Vielleicht durch Europa reisen, vielleicht in die Provence oder so. Ein paar Zoom-Anrufe aus der Provence anzunehmen, könnte in Ordnung sein.
Jason Clark (39:21): Ein bisschen. Ja, das würde ich gerne tun, mein Traum ist es, das jeden Sommer zu tun und jeden einzelnen Sommer von dort aus zu arbeiten.
Emily Heath (39:29): Los geht's.
Jason Clark (39:31): Also okay, so eine Art Nachdenken über die Zukunft. Wenn wir gerade darüber reden: Wenn wir mit der Zeit vorankommen, in was würden sich zivilgesellschaftliche Organisationen Ihrer Meinung nach eine Investition wünschen, die sich für die Zukunft auszahlt? Was würden Sie zum Beispiel allen vorschlagen, zum Beispiel darüber nachzudenken, was die wichtigsten Investitionen sind, die sie in fünf oder zehn Jahren tätigen könnten, abgesehen von Menschen?
Emily Heath (40:04): Außer Menschen, Versicherungen. Wahrscheinlich ist die Versicherung einer von ihnen ganz ernst zu nehmen. Aber wenn es um mehr Technologie geht, gibt es immer noch viele Unternehmen, die nicht angemessen in Cloud-Sicherheit investieren. Sie verfügen über ein gewisses Maß an Cloud-Sicherheit und die Leute verlassen sich auf native AWS- und Azure-Funktionen, was bis zu einem gewissen Punkt in Ordnung ist, aber wenn die Welt komplett in die Cloud wechselt und alle von Bare Metal weggehen, kann man sich nicht nur auf sie verlassen etablierte Cloud-Anbieter, der Sicherheits-Stack rund um Konfiguration, Geheimnisse, Verwaltung und alles, was damit zusammenhängt. Ich befürchte, dass viele Unternehmen ehrlich gesagt nur Lippenbekenntnisse zur Cloud-Sicherheit abgeben.
Jason Clark (40:54): Ich denke schon, meine Antwort auf meine eigene Frage wäre übrigens: „Datensicherheit“. Es geht um die Daten, die wir schützen. DocuSign, es sind diese Signaturen, diese Verträge, es geht um die Daten, und ich habe in meinen Gesprächen das Gefühl, dass wir im Datenschutzdenken noch sehr unreif sind, weil wir es gewohnt sind, dass die Daten in unserem Rechenzentrum liegen und wir diesen großen Umkreis haben. Und ich denke, das ist ein sehr zu wenig investierter Bereich, um zu verstehen, wo sich meine Daten befinden und wie sie geschützt werden. Welches Risiko besteht da? Was sind die Auswirkungen? Wie empfindlich ist es? Und das alles, weil es sich vermehrt.
Emily Heath (41:31): Es sind schon wieder diese fünf Fragen, oder? Es sind diese fünf Fragen: Was ist mir am wichtigsten? Wo ist es? Wie schütze ich es? Wie verletzlich und gefährdet bin ich? Und wie bin ich darauf vorbereitet, wenn es soweit ist? Es klingt so einfach, wenn man es auf das Wesentliche herunterbricht, aber genau das sind die Grundlagen des Sicherheitsprogramms. Und es ist bei jedem Unternehmen anders. Und es ist schwer, das zu tun, es ist schwer, das alles zu entdecken. Denn diese Fragen sind voller Annahmen, dass Sie wissen, wo sich alle Ihre Daten befinden, dass Sie die Assets verstehen, die sie unterstützen, und dass sie übrigens alle auf die richtige Art und Weise bereitgestellt werden? Verfügen sie über die nötige Sicherheit oder alle Zugangskontrollen, wie sie sein sollten? Es klingt so einfach, aber ich konnte nicht zustimmen. Ich denke, und vieles davon übertrage ich für uns in die Cloud, weil die Umgebungen offensichtlich größtenteils dorthin gehen.
Jason Clark (42:19): Ich glaube, dass die Cloud es am Anfang in gewisser Weise schwieriger macht, weil Ihre Lösungen dort nicht liegen, aber am Ende denke ich, dass sie es uns tatsächlich einfacher macht. Wie wir [unhörbar 00:42:30], ich meine, es gibt eine Menge Dinge, die man tun kann. Es ist also vorübergehend ein seltsamer Punkt, aber am Ende und in der Zukunft denke ich, dass wir wirklich gut sein werden. Also letzter Abschnitt, schnelle Treffer. Kurze Fragen an Sie und nur schnelle Antworten. Also, bist du fertig?
Emily Heath (42:54): Ich bin bereit, bring es mit.
Jason Clark (42:57): Alles klar. Welches Talent oder welche Fähigkeit haben Sie, die nicht in Ihrem Lebenslauf enthalten sind?
Emily Heath (43:02): Ich bin Reiki-Heilerin, eine ausgebildete Reiki-Heilerin.
Jason Clark (43:05): Wow, das ist ziemlich cool.
Emily Heath (43:08): Etwas ganz anderes.
Jason Clark (43:10): Ich weiß nicht einmal, was das ist. Was ist das, Emily?
Emily Heath (43:13): Es handelt sich um eine praktische Heiltechnik.
Jason Clark (43:15): Oh, cool. Ich werde es recherchieren. Zweitens: Was würden Sie tun, wenn Sie nicht im Bereich Netzwerk und Sicherheit wären?
Emily Heath (43:23): Ich würde Köchin werden. Ich liebe es absolut zu kochen. Es ist einfach mein Ding, es ist die Art und Weise, wie ich mich entspanne. Ich liebe es einfach, Menschen mit Essen glücklich zu machen.
Jason Clark (43:34): Und ich weiß, das ist eine schwierige Frage, weil ich auch Koch bin, und das ist eine sehr, aber was ist Ihre Lieblingsküche?
Emily Heath (43:43): Oh, das ist hart. Ich perfektioniere mein Bolognese-Rezept seit etwa 15 Jahren, weil italienisches Essen einfach das Beste ist. Ich meine, ich bin manchmal ein bisschen ein großer Fan von Kohlenhydraten, aber für mich ist italienisches Essen genau das Richtige.
Jason Clark (44:01): Oh Mann, meiner ist wahrscheinlich asiatisch. Einfach asiatisch, viele asiatische Aromen. Aber wir müssen uns irgendwo an der Amalfiküste treffen, abhängen und etwas Gutes haben-
Emily Heath (44:15): Lasst uns das tun.
Jason Clark (44:18): Und letzte Frage: Was wäre Ihr wichtigster Ratschlag für einen neuen CSO?
Emily Heath (44:23): Oh, ich würde sagen, um Hilfe bitten. Wie wir bereits erwähnt haben, ist diese Community unglaublich und es gibt so viele Menschen, die bereit und in der Lage sind, Ihnen auf Ihrer Reise zu helfen. Ich wünschte, ich hätte am Anfang um mehr Hilfe gebeten und wäre etwas demütiger gewesen, zu wissen, dass ich nicht alles gelöst habe. Und das ist ein großer Fehler, den Leute, die in diese Karriere einsteigen, glauben: Sie müssen alles wissen, sie müssen all diese bewegenden Teile kennen. Das ist unmöglich. Ich meine, wenn wir Malware zurückentwickeln müssten, wäre ich der schlechteste Mensch auf der Welt, der das kann. Ich habe wirklich kluge Leute in meinem Team, die das können. Ich kann auf keinen Fall alles wissen. Sie bitten also um Hilfe, bitten um Führung. Es gibt so viele willige, unglaubliche Führungskräfte in dieser CSO-Gemeinschaft, die sich alle Mühe geben, Ihnen auf Ihrem Weg zu helfen. Scheuen Sie sich also nicht, um Hilfe zu bitten.
Jason Clark (45:17): Ich liebe es, das ist großartig. Schauen Sie, das ist die ganze Zeit, die wir haben. Emily, das war großartig. Und ich liebe jedes Gespräch, das wir führen, und ich habe das Gefühl, wir hätten wahrscheinlich ruhig vier Stunden durchhalten können. Bevor ich Sie gehen lasse, wenn die Leute Sie um Hilfe bitten möchten, wenn sie Sie um eine Mentorschaft oder was auch immer bitten möchten, wie können sie am besten mit Ihnen in Kontakt treten?
Emily Heath (45:44): Ja, mich auf LinkedIn anzupingen ist der einfachste Weg. Es ist der schnellste und einfachste Weg. Es gibt viele Netzwerke, in denen ich bereits involviert bin, und ich betreue und coache viele Menschen, so wie ich weiß, dass Sie das auch tun, Jason. Auch Sie widmen dieser Community viel Zeit. Und obwohl wir nicht 100 Leute aufnehmen können, finde ich es toll, dass man, wenn man einen Weg und einen Ort hat, an den man gehen und fragen kann: „Hey, ich kämpfe mit dieser Sache, was hast du gemacht?“ diese Situation? Das mache ich übrigens ständig mit CSOs. Wenn es etwas gibt, mit dem ich zu kämpfen habe, mache ich das Gleiche, ich wende mich an Freunde und sage: Schau mal, das ist etwas, womit ich wirklich zu kämpfen habe. Wie hast du das gemacht? Also würde ich sagen: Kontaktieren Sie mich auf LinkedIn und pingen Sie mich auf Twitter an. Viele von euch haben ohnehin schon meine E-Mail-Adresse und meine Handynummer. Aber ja, ich bin für die Community hier und möchte auch der Community dafür danken, dass sie auch für mich da ist.
Jason Clark (46:36): Perfekt. Vielen Dank und vielen Dank an alle, die sich uns angeschlossen haben.
Emily Heath (46:40): Danke, Jason.
Sponsor (46:43): Der Security Visionaries Podcast wird vom Team von Netskope betrieben. Suchen Sie nach der richtigen Cloud-Sicherheitsplattform für Ihre digitale Transformation? Mit der Netskope Security Cloud können Sie Benutzer von jedem Gerät und jeder Anwendung sicher und schnell direkt mit dem Internet verbinden. Erfahren Sie mehr unter Netskope.
Produzent (47:04): Vielen Dank, dass Sie Security Visionaries zuhören. Bitte nehmen Sie sich einen Moment Zeit, um die Sendung zu bewerten und zu rezensieren und sie mit jemandem zu teilen, den Sie kennen. Seien Sie gespannt auf die Veröffentlichung neuer Episoden alle zwei Wochen und wir sehen uns in der nächsten Episode.
){kind=icon}
