Matthew McCormack: How do we help create a pipeline of future cyber leaders, but then also that pyramid? How do we get millions more people into the discipline and just convince them that you don't have to be a com sci or an engineer to do this, right? All you have to be is inquisitive, right? What I want is I want somebody who looks at something and says, "Well, that's interesting. That doesn't make sense." "Let me figure out why," that's the person who would make a good security person. If you are somebody that looks at something and says, "I don't understand why it looks like that, but I'm going to go figure out why," then you're right for this field.
Narrator: Hello and welcome to Security Visionaries hosted by Jason Clark, CISO at Netskope. You just heard from today's guest, Matthew McCormack, senior vice president and chief information security officer at GSK. What happens in a world where the bad guys outnumber the good guys? If you're a modern day CISO, this thought keeps you up at night. Cyber criminals are multiplying at an astounding rate and CISOs are racing to build out teams that can help them stay ahead. A key part of the fight is developing the next generation of security leaders, but how do we, as an industry fill the ranks of tomorrow's cybersecurity forces? Luckily, that's just what today's guest is here to help us figure out. So before we dive into Matthews gameplan, here's a brief word from our sponsor.
Ad roll: The security visionaries podcast is powered by the team at Netskope. Netskope is the sassy leader offering everything you need to provide a fast, data-centric and cloud smart user experience at the speed of business today. Learn more at netskope.com.
Narrator: Without further ado, please enjoy episode four, Security Visionaries with Matthew McCormick, senior vice president and chief information security officer of GSK, and your host, Jason Clark.
Jason Clark: Welcome to security visionaries. I'm your host Jason Clark, CMO and chief strategy officer and chief security officer at Netskope. I'm joined today by my friend and special guests, Matt McCormack. Matt, how are you?
Matthew McCormack: Good. Jason, how are you?
Jason Clark: I am super fantastic, man. Really good to kick off this podcast series with you here. You are our second guest. I was with Emily Heath two weeks ago and that went really, really well. So, as we get started, what was your first job insecurity?
Matthew McCormack: So my first job insecurity, actually ironically, was in the Navy, right? When I was ROTC in college in my senior year of college, they did a physical on me before I joined the Navy and told me that I was red-green colorblind. And if you are familiar with boats at all, red and green are important colors out at sea. It tells you which way the ship is going. And so they basically told me I couldn't fly a plane or drive a ship and so they turned me into a cryptologist which in the '90s cryptology morphed into the early network security. So really wound up in this because of the Navy and because I was colorblind.
Jason Clark: That's an interesting story, right? I think my mind was similar to yours from joining the army, not because of colorblindness, right? But I was flying planes thinking I wanted to be a pilot, and while I was flying, the pilots all around me were professional airline pilots, I had left the Navy, and they said, "Listen, you don't want to be a professional airline pilot. Basically, I'm just driving a bus. Pick a different career." And I'm like, "Oh, wow, okay. You just crushed my dreams."
Matthew McCormack: That's some good advice though.
Jason Clark: It was great advice and I dumped into security. That was it. I was an analyst, right? So it changed my life.
Matthew McCormack: The world has changed, right? Now people are getting into security originally, right? Security originalists, where we all happened into it years ago.
Jason Clark: It was good. I think, Matt, I must say, we've known each other probably 15 years, right? I'd say we've helped be the foundation for this industry, right? We've started from this thing from zero together. It's been pretty cool to see.
Matthew McCormack: I know my first CISO role actually, I was the first CISO at the organization at Defense Intelligence Agency. There hadn't been one before. The idea that we're literally creating some of those first organizations and as scary as it sounds almost 20 years ago, but yes. I remember our first interactions, you were with Websense and Blue Coats back then and I was at the IRS and then everybody was doing their first web proxying and web filtering. 20+ years ago, network security was just packet filtering firewalls, right? And that was it. And then, VPNs and then all the web content filtering popped in and now here we are today.
Jason Clark: Just honestly, we were figuring it out, right? We were just having to invent, as we went and said, "Okay, let's see if this works," right? Which is a lot I think of contributes to a lot of the ways that we still need to do things today, right? And so tell us a little bit about your role at GSK.
Matthew McCormack: As the Chief Information Security Officer, I have all the traditional roles of a CISO, right? Whether it's the cybersecurity network defense, but I also have the GRC function, that governance, risk and compliance which was a global regulated pharmaceutical. There are a significant amount of regulations. And one of the interesting pieces when you're global is it's not just US regulations, right? It's regulations for every company or every country that you manufacture and sell in. And we are in a significant amount of countries. And so when you look at the governance, risk and compliance, its significance, right? As opposed to a previous role with a US tech company, where you're really only generally concerned about a limited amount of countries.
Matthew McCormack: Being with a pharmaceutical that manufactures and sells in almost every country, having to be aware of and pay attention to all these different compliance rules is different, right? Actually it's quite eye opening because you get to see the manner in which different countries approach the privacy of their citizens and how data is kept and maintained. And there's a wide variety, right? I say, as an American, we generally treat the privacy of our citizens toward the bottom of how many other countries do. A lot of countries are very protective of their citizens data. So it was a quite eye opening starting this role several years ago.
Jason Clark: How do you keep up with it at all? That is a lot, right? That's a lot of changing. It looks like it's changing faster than ever it has to me. So how do you stay on top of it?
Matthew McCormack: Well, I mean, for me, look, you have to have a team of people that know how to do it and know how to do it well but also global. You're not going to have a team of people sitting in one spot that's able to manage this global program. When you look at GRC, you have individual people. I'll have several people that are the only person on my team in that country, right? And their job is to maintain that relationship with the local governments and to keep us abreast of all the changes, but there's a lot of significant when you look at China security law, China privacy law, but there's also a lot of privacy discussions going on in India about changing laws over there.
Matthew McCormack: And so when you look at some of these larger countries, any changes in privacy laws can have impact on us globally, right? Because to comply with some of these laws, you may have to make some corporate level changes.
Jason Clark: So when you were at the DIA, you and I were talking a bunch about making this transition away from government and being a CISO in the enterprise. Maybe talk a little bit about how that transition was for you, what's different and also your advice to anybody making that change right now. Because there's definitely people I had seen that had tried and they'd come in a little too hard and it doesn't fit me. What was that like for you and what would you recommend for others?
Matthew McCormack: A router is a router and a person is a person, right? Those things aren't fundamentally different being federal and being commercial. I will say some of the differences, and I don't think anybody would be shocked by any of these, speed, right? The speed with which you can get things done. I know that there's been some changes to allow some more flexibility in the government, but really, the budgeting and the procurement process of the government was not necessarily built around doing things quickly, right? It's basically built around doing things fairly inequitably and not necessarily around being done with speed.
Matthew McCormack: And so for me, one of the bigger changes, and for me, it was 2012 when I went commercial, was my ability to buy and procure what I needed to do, but then also the speed with which in general, not always, but the speed with which I could hire, right? The ability to identify talents and grab that talent very quickly, commercially, was a big difference. Now, on the flipside is, I would say, generally, employees, when you're dealing with employees and some of the actions employees take and as CISOs, we're always having to keep an eye on what we allow employees to do and what we don't allow them to do.
Matthew McCormack: The attitude within the federal space, the government space, people were more comfortable with a command and control-type attitude. So if we say you can't do X, on your computer, people generally said, "Okay, we can't do X," right? Whereas commercially, it's more of a negotiation, right? Especially if you're with a global company, you're going to have unions, worker commissions in Europe. You're going to have different national laws that allow people to do things. There are certain countries that allow some minimal personal use of corporate by law, which you didn't have federally. You could say, "You cannot use your federal computer to do personal work." Boom, end of story, it's done.
Matthew McCormack: But when you have some of these countries that actually have laws that allow that to go on, we have to manage that. So from a personal point of view, some of the rules and requirements on what must be done and what can't be done, sometimes that was a little bit easier on the federal side because it makes the point it, but to make these decisions by edict was a little bit simpler.
Jason Clark: For you, it seems like there's a lot of similarities, right? And then there's some clear differences to me. It just seems very wide, right? Because other than the Army, I have not worked in the federal space.
Matthew McCormack: And the federal space is not all the same, right? So I've been military. I've done intelligence and also spent a number of years with the IRS, so essentially financial. And there's a wide swath of differences between those different areas within the federal space. It's not all ubiquitous. It doesn't all look the exact same, but I will say one of the questions you'd ask, "What advice would I have for somebody transitioning from federal to commercial?" and some of it would be around. Some of the comfort level they had around, as a CISO you make a decision, everybody will go do it. When you're moving into the commercial space is understanding that everything isn't a negotiation or is a negotiation, right?
Matthew McCormack: If there's something that you need to do from a security point of view you're going to have to sit down and make sure you've checked with your privacy officers, with your employment attorneys, within HR, within these different areas. You won't be able to get things done just because you said to do it, right? And understanding that it doesn't mean that you're not a smart person and people don't believe you, it just means that that is the process. Whereas I think federally, we were able to do more of the, "Because I said so." And when you come out into the commercial space, people will not blindly accept what you tell them.
Jason Clark: So just a little bit transition here, what do you believe is the fastest growing risk in cybersecurity, the catch, that people do not realize that CISOs or most security teams or executives do not realize is the fastest growing risk? What's sneaking up on everybody?
Matthew McCormack: I think a lot of people, they're aware now because of some of the stuff, but not understanding the full range and impact is third party. And third party, there's multiple pieces to third party. As companies have grown, they've moved away from all employees, obviously, to very heavy support from contractors or third parties to provide bodies to help you but then also software. And the rise in ransomware, which has affected so many different companies and some very large companies, and specifically when a service provider, somebody that is providing bodies to your company to help you complete a task and traditionally, you're allowing those bodies some manner of access into your company similar to a bad employee, when one of those service providers gets hit with ransomware, really step one is you killing all access for all employees of that company who are accessing your network, killing all remote accesses until the company has determined what the outcome of the ransomware was.
Matthew McCormack: And you realize the impact when all of a sudden 1,500 people can't show up to work on Monday because their company's got hit with ransomware. And you realize the depth of dependency you have on that service provider. And then the second piece to that is the software, right? Everybody knows SolarWinds there's in the press all these things. The idea that you're actually buying and deploying already compromised systems into your own network and it's not like these companies are going to provide us with the source code, so that we can go do our due diligence source code analysis, right? They're not going to do that.
Matthew McCormack: And so because of that, we're really dependent on the product security internal capabilities of these vendors. And so when I say third party, third party around service providers and bodies and then third party around compromised software. You just realize that dependency. At GSK, obviously, a pharmaceutical company, we specialize in making medicines and vaccines and things like that. You don't think about what impact your IT management software could have like SolarWinds, right? You bring SolarWinds in. SolarWinds gets hacked. You have to rip it out, and then all of a sudden, that can shut down a whole company.
Matthew McCormack: And so really understanding that impact of all these third parties and how you try to develop a response plan for what you do when something like this does happen.
Jason Clark: I think you just hit, I think, what is probably, I agree, the biggest. I think the two biggest is really the third party risk, but I'd say it's the fastest growing because of SaaS, right? It is the thing that the business is just lining up with or without IT. And mostly actually without IT in most organizations, they're just going, right? HR, marketing, etcetera and then also the growth of data, right? Data, you are the MC, right? And data is 3x'ing from 57 zettabytes to 107 zettabytes over the next four years. We don't see storage companies stocks, 3x'ing going through the roof, right? Because it's all moving to cloud or mobile. I think it's definitely those two, but double clicking on the third party risk which is at the fastest rate by count, it's definitely SaaS, right? Most companies have over a thousand. What are you seeing organizations do to get involved in that, the CISOs getting over with the business and helping them enabling that versus historically, we've always said, "Hey, no, we have one CRM. Don't go do anything else"?
Matthew McCormack: Anything dot-dot as a service is sometimes code for, "We're going to go around IT," right? And sometimes, look, I understand the reason people do this sometimes because when you go through the process, it takes longer in general, it's more expensive in general, but there's reasons for that, right? Especially in a regulated industry, you have to make sure you're complying. I am seeing a huge trend, especially in direct-to-consumer, right? People wanting to be able to sell directly to you, Jason, which sounds great on the surface and they can go out and find a vendor who will say, "Hey, I'll spin up a portal for you and you can sell your product directly to Jason." "Okay, great, and yes, that that'll drive sales, but do we have a PCI letter, right? Do we have the compliance set up? Are we storing credit cards? Are we storing personal data?" some of these different things.
Matthew McCormack: And so what we're having to do is trying to be proactive and reaching out. As we find some of these capabilities internally, not necessarily just the old days, take out the hammer, smash it and shut it down, but say, "Okay, you know what? If there is a requirement for direct to consumer and you've already built that portal, let's figure out if we can make it legitimate, right? Let's get all the PCI portion done for your direct-to-consumer portal and then let's make sure that other folks within the company going forward are using the one that you just built and not going out and building their own."
Matthew McCormack: So in the past, we probably would have said, "No, this is in violation. We don't do direct to consumer, blah, blah, blah," but now we're having to say, "Look, if you're doing it, statistically there's other people in the company who are either doing it or are going to want to do it, so let's figure out how we get this done." And I'll tell you, a good example and I'm not plugging anybody is when COVID hit here in the US, if you have children, all of a sudden, they popped on Zoom, and Zoom, within GSK, Zoom was not one of the approved collaboration tools. And there was tremendous pressure to allow us to start using that specific tool on our devices when we had not gone through the security due diligence on it. We didn't have a licensing and a privacy agreement with it, all of these things and a lot of pushback from our side on deploying a freeware tool into the environment, but yet, so many people were used to it because they'd all help their children with school and they gotten very comfortable with Zoom and they understood it.
Matthew McCormack: And so sometimes, you know saying no to something while it may make sense from a security point of view, security's in the gray. It's not black and white anymore. Security, you got to live in the gray. And so finding a way while we were not able to necessarily deploy it as quickly as a lot of people would have liked, in the end, we did allow ourselves to add that to the approved collaboration tools and then provide some level of support.
Jason Clark: That's a great example. To that, I get surprised, I'm almost so many companies a day, right? Definitely probably five CISOs a week and obviously many people trying to sell to my security program and listen to vendors, but how many people except the Zoom bots, the bots that come on and say, "Hey," that thing that's just hidden there, translating the whole conversation? Every time I say to the people that are hosting the call, and sometimes it's big companies, I'm just like, "Hey, do you realize that I just looked that company up and they're only 18 employees and they don't have a single person with a security title and their company and we're trusting this whole conversation to be sitting there in the cloud? You know that's probably a compromise, right?"
Jason Clark: And people are like, 'Oh, no, I hadn't thought about that." And sometimes it is security teams and I'm like, "Okay, this is, this is interesting, right?
Matthew McCormack: And I think that one in particular when there was a lot of initial push toward allowing use, allowing that app to be deployed onto our devices, laying out the reason like, "Look, we're not just being jerks to be jerks here, right? We're not just saying no for no reason. We had to lay out the reasons, right? That conversation is kept on commercial servers of another company. If you're discussing patient data or medical device or anything like that, we have no expectation of privacy. That data could be harvested, mined and sold to whoever because we don't have a privacy agreement."
Matthew McCormack: We, within security, have to do a better job sometimes of explaining the reasons. People have gotten smarter about technology and don't just blindly accept, "Well, the security guy said that's bad, so we're not going to do it." They want this. It's just families and kids, right? As my children get older, I need to start explain to them why a little bit more. It's not just a, "No, you can't do that." It's like, "You can't do that because XYZ," or, "Look, when you start driving, you need to start ... This is why you have to go around that corner slow because you can't see this thing over here and there's a blind curve." Same thing, right?
Matthew McCormack: When people are used to a technology, being told that they can't use it in this environment, they want to know why. And I think that's a legitimate question, right? It doesn't mean that they're questioning whether we know what we're doing as security professionals. It just means that there's a level of knowledge that they have, and because of that, they have some questions. And so we need to do a better job from the security side of being that explainer in chief.
Jason Clark: Well, there's two parts there, that's really important. So there's one which is translating this to real risks that I want to double click on. And then the second one we'll come to is, and you've made the statement that was published, it was that in the end where all CISOs are salesman which is true. And so I want to hit both of those around there's risk changing, it's happening fast. I actually say that we're in this upside down world of security where everything we protected is now out and now our security controls have to follow those users and those data everywhere they go and we still have to protect the old, right?
Jason Clark: So it's like enable the new, protect the old, but in this new model, one of the things that you talked about the past is frameworks, but are the frameworks really there and up to date to truly understand what my risk is in this new world versus let's say more threat modeling and actually thinking about the risk per each stage and what my control is and moving that to real time? How do you feel we are as an industry in that thinking and what suggestions do you have?
Matthew McCormack: Are the frameworks there? Yes. Are they as up to date as we need them? No. Right? I think we've all been very reliant on the goodness frameworks for a number of years. As you talked about at the beginning, as the world is turning dot-dot as a service and things like that, those frameworks have struggled to keep pace, right? But it doesn't mean that they're not still good foundational. But I think for us, your ability to grade how well you're doing and if you're actually delivering on the commitment you're making to your board, you have to have some kind of framework, right?
Matthew McCormack: We got our ICF, our internal control framework, and as most people, we use NIST as a baseline, but then we customize and there's reasons to do that. If you look at your internal audit capability, you want your framework matching up with theirs, so that if they're identifying an issue, it maps into yours. And if you're looking at your privacy organization, if you're looking at some of these different, your overall compliance team, not just your security compliance, but the folks that are responsible for us, your HIPAA, your Sarbanes-Oxley, all these other national compliance standards and GDPR, right? There's so many compliance and frameworks out there.
Matthew McCormack: You could fall down a black hole of perpetually trying to make the perfect framework. And I think for us, we decided NIST is our framework and we will do a small amount of customization because of our unique industry and draw the line there. I do you think you will forever be updating because when you're in 130 countries, there's always new frameworks and new standards, and new things like that that you'll just never be able to catch up on. We do try to review our framework annually, make changes, but I do think frameworks are great, frameworks are important. Threat modeling is very important as well and trying to go through ...
Matthew McCormack: If you got 130 factories, not all 130 factories are at the same level of importance. Maybe one makes your highest selling and highest revenue-producing product. Maybe another one is just packaging the cardboard that you need to put that product in. Both are important, but which one is the most critical, right? Can you get cardboard from somebody else? Most likely. Can somebody else make that specific medicine for you? Less likely. So your threat modeling, you have to go through and we are in a constant state of that, not just for our manufacturing facilities, but also our data stores and our data repositories, right? Where do we allow them to be replicated? Who owns them? Are they in the cloud? Are they not in the cloud?
Matthew McCormack: Maybe it makes economic sense to put something in the cloud and make it some sort of SaaS model. However, the risk of taking that data outside of your environment and putting it into the cloud outweighs the economics. We are in a constant state of threat modeling and risk return, right? For us, is the risk of doing that worth the return and I'll tell you, that is why and it's a topic, is within any good security organization, something everybody deals with, but from hiring, don't always go look for computer science people for your security organization, right? If you're doing this type of threat modeling, you better find yourself an accountant, right? You better find yourself somebody that understands money.
Matthew McCormack: And when you're looking at your insurance policy, your cyber insurance policies, computer science people are not the best people to be evaluating your insurance risk levels. And so when you look at your security organization, when you're doing threat modeling, don't just blindly accept that you're going to have people internally that know how to do that. Either you're going to have some really boutique specialist people and we're lucky to have a couple of really smart people to help us with that or go out and get it. Because if you try to do some of that threat modeling with people that are not specialists in that, your priorities for that year are going to be pretty messed up.
Jason Clark: Honestly, we hit sales, right? We said, "Oh, well, you need to be salesman," right? Well, I don't think no computer science majors aren't necessarily going to be your best salesman either, right? So I think depending on your domain and depending on what you're trying to grow helps nurture that talent gap that we have. What I'd say is I've had tremendous success actually getting kids out of high school. So with a Security Advisor Alliance, I go to high schools and middle schools and we're teaching them, "Hey, this is cyber." And they're all like, "Oh, I thought it was like rocket science. I didn't realize it was that easy. I didn't realize I had to be a guy in the basement with no lights on and just sliding pizzas under the door," right?
Jason Clark: And you'll see groups of girls almost always beating the guys in a capture the flag event. And they're like, "Oh, wow, I didn't even know this was an option for me, right? I'm good at this." And so I've been recruiting out of high school and it's not more like ... College isn't for everybody right away, right? I went into the Army instead of going to college at first. I actually didn't get my degree until I was 25. And the only reason I got my degree was they said, "Hey, we want to make you a CISO, but we can't unless you have your degree." And so what's your view on the places that you go and have you been grabbing kids out of high school at all, and also just in general, what's your view on things that other security and IT leaders can do for this talent gap?
Matthew McCormack: 100% right. So yeah, I speak it at high schools and it blows my mind. I just actually ... A goddaughter of mine, I did an interview with her because her high school has a cybersecurity program and she actually was doing a program where she has to code, but then she also has to pull down some products and look at them and evaluate the risk. And it blew my mind that they were doing that in their junior year of high school. I was really wowed, but then also like, "Thank God," right? Because to your point, the amount, whoever you talk to, whether it's three, five or seven, right? The million, 3, 5, 7 million people gap that we have in the cyberspace, expecting that we're going to be able to wait for these people to graduate university before they can enter the field is crazy, right?
Matthew McCormack: There's just too much demand. And also depending on that discipline, like I said, I'm with you. You don't fundamentally need that university degree. I taught you for years at a local community college and they had an associate's degree in cybersecurity where it was several years ago, but they were literally teaching these people how to use, I'm going to date myself, NetWitness and ArcSight and some of these tools, right? They were teaching them how to use them. And when I was still in the government at that point, I was hiring those people left and right because you can literally put them right in your sock.
Matthew McCormack: And so I think the idea that there's so many pieces to cybersecurity and then I'm not saying you want us operating on you, but it's become very much like medicine, right? The same way not all doctors are doctors, right? Some doctor is good at joints, some doctor is good at dermatology. You have all these different specialists who are good at their different things. Security has become that, right? You have your pen testers, you have your training specialists. If you're in a company the size of ours, you need program and project managers who can manage these multimillion dollar projects.
Matthew McCormack: So when I look at my team of 300-400 people, you have all different backgrounds, all different color stripes and I will say some of the best security people are psychology people. And when I talk at colleges, I routinely have people saying, "Oh, I'm studying psychology or sociology, but I'm really interested in cybersecurity." "Great because big portion of cybersecurity is what the user does." And people that understand how to influence users, when you're trying to get users to not click on a phishing, I can't just send an email saying, "Don't be dumb and click this link," I'm going to have to figure out how to influence people and those are psychology background people. And so there's all different types.
Jason Clark: I know a couple of CISOs that got a degree in psychology, right? Some really good CISOs and they actually started as psychologists and then made the transition. They don't talk about that too much, but that's one of the secrets to their success. In a way, I think it's all about being different, right? Being unique. Don't just follow the main road that everybody else has done. What can you bring to the table that nobody else has?
Matthew McCormack: Y en realidad es una de mis cosas que me molestan y, obviamente, no soy rector de una universidad ni pretendo serlo. Una de mis cosas que me molestan son las universidades que ponen sus programas de ciberseguridad en sus escuelas de ingeniería o ciencias de la comunicación. Ese es 100% el lugar equivocado para ponerlo, ¿verdad? La ciberseguridad no es una disciplina de la informática y ni siquiera es una disciplina de ingeniería. Sí, soy ingeniero. Sí, crecí de esa manera. ¿Y eso ha influido en cómo me convertí en CISO? Sí, absolutamente y tengo 100 compañeros que no son ingenieros, ¿verdad? Es un negocio ¿no? La ciberseguridad es una disciplina de riesgo empresarial. Y cuando miras una escuela de negocios, "Oye, vas a tener una clase sobre riesgo, una clase sobre seguros, una clase sobre finanzas, una clase sobre psicología, una clase sobre comportamiento organizacional", cuando obtuve mi MBA. , las clases que tomé en la escuela de negocios estaban infinitamente más relacionadas con lo que hago día a día que las clases que tomé en la escuela de ingeniería. Y por eso me mata cuando veo que las universidades ponen sus programas de informática o seguridad en sus escuelas de ciencias de la comunicación o ingeniería. 100% el lugar equivocado.
Jason Clark: Estoy de acuerdo. Para mí, el MBA tuvo un impacto significativo en la forma en que veía a mi organización, a mí mismo y a mi función. Honestamente, obtener mi licenciatura fue insignificante para mí, ¿verdad? Realmente no cambió mi vida aparte de que obtuve la casilla de verificación que me apetece, pero obtener mi MBA cambió mi forma de pensar. Entonces eso fue significativo. Si volvemos atrás, mencionaste algo sobre las diferentes funciones, si tuvieras que reducir tu carrera y aceptar un puesto de nivel gerencial, por cualquier motivo, ¿en qué dominio te gustaría estar? ¿Cuál es su dominio de seguridad favorito en el que le gustaría operar a ese nivel?
Matthew McCormack: Entrenamiento, ¿verdad? Porque creo que para mí es una de las áreas absolutamente más críticas, ¿verdad? 100%, porque sigue siendo el 90% del usuario, ¿no? ¿Qué hace el individuo que expone? Gastamos millones y millones y millones en herramientas para evitar que alguien haga algo y luego miro el porcentaje de mi presupuesto, eso es capacitación y es minúsculo, pero así son las cosas. Y hay una tendencia dentro de la industria de la capacitación en seguridad que intenta ser más interactiva, más actual y arrancada de los titulares. Todavía es realmente difícil. Pero diré que una de las áreas que todavía está en el espacio de la ciberseguridad, que todavía está tan abierta para un pensamiento diferente de próxima generación, es la capacitación, ¿verdad? Porque así es como interactúas con la gente.
Jason Clark: Eso es acertado. Y puedes medirlo. Puedes medir las diferencias en los cambios, ¿verdad? Me encanta esa respuesta, Matt, porque te lo diré en muchas entrevistas, hago esta pregunta todo el tiempo. Como sabes, he contratado a más de 50 CISO en mi carrera, ¿verdad? Tengo 30 trabajando para mí en el pasado y tengo 10 aquí en Netskope, pero también hago muchas entrevistas para CISO y CIO en su nombre, ¿verdad? Tres CIO me están pidiendo que sea parte de su proceso de entrevistas que se encuentran en diferentes empresas en este momento solo desde el punto de vista de la amistad. Entonces, diría que he entrevistado a cientos de CISO en este momento y siempre hice esta pregunta: usted es el primer CISO que ha respondido a la capacitación.
Matthew McCormack: Probablemente porque soy un programador terrible. Probablemente sea por eso. Nunca querrás que codifique nada para ti.
Jason Clark: Generalmente es [inaudible 00:37:07] o "Oh, quiero estar cerca del negocio" y, más comúnmente, es "Quiero ser arquitecto". Quiero jugar con la tecnología", o me encanta el SOC. Me encanta pelear la pelea, ¿verdad?" Pero de vez en cuando, hay una persona que simplemente dice: "Me encantan las IR" y yo digo: "Oh, hay algo mal en eso". Ahí va tu vida. Estás bien con no tener nunca vacaciones y trabajar todos los viernes por la noche. Eso es genial." Eso es lo que es realmente único, Matt. Creo que eso es importante y creo que cualquiera que esté escuchando. En realidad, eso es algo en lo que pensar. Puedes hacer mucho con el entrenamiento. Hay muchas oportunidades ahí, especialmente pensando en inventar tecnología. Y sé que usted y yo en realidad estamos entrenando a una empresa que quiere hacer algo en este espacio. Así que deberíamos dedicar más tiempo a hablar de eso.
Jason Clark: Continuando, un poco más de tiempo aquí, algunas preguntas rápidas para usted, ¿verdad? Si pudieras hacer algo diferente en tu carrera o regresar a tus últimos roles de CISO, ¿qué harías diferente?
Matthew McCormack: Honestamente, creo que la retrospectiva es genial, ¿verdad? Creo que hubiera esperado que SaaS... No pensé que llegaría tan rápido como lo hizo. Pensé que tendría un poco más de tiempo para preparar mi infraestructura para el punto-punto como servicio. Llegó más rápido de lo que pensaba.
Jason Clark: Eso es común, ¿verdad? En realidad, lo curioso es que sabes que Netskope está en ese espacio, ¿verdad? Y por eso realizamos informes para las personas. Llegamos y la gente piensa que tiene como 100 SaaS y luego, cuando les mostramos, tienen 1000 o 2000 y les mostramos que el recuento de tráfico y que su tráfico SaaS es más de la mitad del tráfico que su tráfico web. Y simplemente entiendes esto: "Oh, guau". Y luego la siguiente oración dice: "Eso pasó rápido", ¿verdad? Es perfecto. Por eso hablamos de que usted dijo que el riesgo de terceros es el riesgo de más rápido crecimiento. Y creo que eso está impulsado por SaaS o la tecnología incorporada, como usted dijo, el ejemplo de SolarWinds. Entonces otro golpe rápido, ¿verdad? ¿Cómo es para usted la jubilación?
Matthew McCormack: No tengo idea. No creo que esté ni cerca de eso, ¿verdad? Estuve en el gobierno demasiado tiempo. Debo seguir trabajando. Creo que lo que realmente disfruto hacer fuera de las tareas operativas diarias de un CISO es ser mentor de muchos CISO, dar conferencias en universidades y asistir a escuelas secundarias. Pienso simplemente en promoción, y para mí, no se trata de promoción, "Así es como se protegen las redes". Esta es la razón por la que la PlayStation de su hijo está en riesgo". Promoción de simplemente alentar a las personas a ingresar en la disciplina. Caray, Jason, si miras hacia atrás en la UMA, es literalmente una suerte ciega, pero ciega, que caigamos en lo que creo que acaba de ser bendecido, ¿verdad?
Matthew McCormack: Si me hubieran dicho en 1997, cuando comencé a hacer esto, que la ciberseguridad se convertiría en la industria que es, nunca lo habría creído. Es sólo un aspecto de la suerte ciega y tonta. Pero ahora necesitamos más CISO, obviamente, ¿verdad? Porque hay millones de empresas, no hay millones de CISO. ¿Cómo ayudamos a crear una cartera de futuros líderes cibernéticos y también esa pirámide? ¿Cómo podemos incorporar a millones de personas más a esta disciplina y simplemente convencerlos de que no es necesario ser un científico de las comunicaciones o un ingeniero para hacer esto, verdad? Todo lo que tienes que ser curioso, ¿verdad?
Matthew McCormack: Lo que quiero es alguien que mire algo y diga: "Bueno, eso es interesante". Eso no tiene sentido. Déjame descubrir por qué." Esa es la persona que sería una buena persona de seguridad. Si eres alguien que mira algo y dice: "No entiendo por qué se ve así, pero voy a averiguar por qué", entonces eres el indicado para este campo, ¿verdad? Entonces, ¿cómo conseguimos que entre más gente? Cuando termine de operar, cuando esté listo para apagar mi teléfono los fines de semana y hacer cosas así, me imagino que pasaré mucho tiempo tratando de convencer o educar a los más jóvenes para que entren en el disciplina.
Jason Clark: Me encanta. En realidad, obviamente, ya estás empezando, lo estás haciendo ahora, ¿no? Simplemente lo vas a hacer más. Creo que hablaste sobre el espacio y cómo caímos en él. Sinceramente, pensé en dejar la seguridad en el año 2000, ¿no? Cada vez que aparecía el virus ILOVEYOU, pensaba: "Ya hemos resuelto esto". Le dije: "Es AV. Tenemos filtros de spam, ¿verdad?" Literalmente estaba empezando a aburrirme un poco y comencé a obtener mi CCIE. Pasé el escrito. Dije: "Oh, la voz es el futuro, ¿verdad? La voz sobre IP podría ser mi carrera". Literalmente me preocupaba que hubiera un callejón sin salida en materia de seguridad y luego el mundo entero cambiara, ¿verdad?
Matthew McCormack: Bueno, mire ahora después de COVID, cuando las empresas pasan del 2% de remotas al 98% de remotas en el transcurso de un mes, y aquí estamos, por muy loco que parezca, vamos a terminar impulsando dos años de COVID y empleo remoto. Obviamente, eso ha cambiado fundamentalmente el mundo. Basta mirar el valor de mercado de las empresas que ofrecen herramientas de colaboración en línea, ¿verdad? A través del techo. Entonces, ¿qué haces cuando no tienes gente en las oficinas? Y no se trata sólo de "¿Cómo puedo asegurar sus transacciones?" Ahora vuelves a entrenarlos. ¿Cómo los entrenas cuando no vienen a la oficina? ¿Cómo les haces...? Es más complicado entregar el portátil cuando te vas que no estás en una oficina.
Matthew McCormack: De repente, la seguridad ha sufrido otra curva y la industria ha cambiado, como usted dice: "Está bien, salió el virus ILOVEYOU". Sí, lo resolvimos. Tenemos AV. ¿Qué sigue?" Dios, si cada año nuestra industria no cambia, ¿verdad? El móvil lo cambió. Cloud lo cambió. Ahora el empleo remoto cambió la situación. Y habrá otro cambio en dos años. Creo que esa es una de las razones por las que nos hemos mantenido en seguridad: cada año es algo diferente.
Jason Clark: Las últimas tres preguntas aquí, pero son respuestas rápidas, son respuestas de 15 a 20 segundos, ¿verdad? Tres preguntas. Entonces, la primera es, ¿qué talento o habilidad no está en tu currículum?
Matthew McCormack: Eso no está en mi currículum. ¿Quieres decir que sí, pero no lo pongo en mi currículum?
Jason Clark: Eso que tienes, podría ser un hobby, ¿verdad?
Matthew McCormack: Sí, me encanta construir, ¿verdad? Ya sea un muro de contención. Cuando llegó el COVID, construí una casa en el árbol para mis hijos y no llegó a tener electricidad ni agua, pero aparte de eso, probablemente sea esencialmente una casita.
Jason Clark: Eso es genial. Muy bien, segundo, si no estuvieras en redes y seguridad, si no estuvieras haciendo lo que estás haciendo, ¿en qué otra industria estarías?
Matthew McCormack: En realidad, en la escuela, yo era ingeniero industrial, que diseñaba fábricas e investigaba operaciones y estadísticas. Me encanta porque se trata de tomar material no estructurado y limpiarlo en nuestro quirófano. Puf, esto es lo que... Me encanta ir a las fábricas y ver cómo se pueden modernizar las máquinas, mover todas las cosas. Eso fue fascinante para mí, pero la Marina dijo: "Puf, serías un mejor criptólogo", y aquí estoy, pero realmente disfrutaría o disfruté significativamente el diseño y las estadísticas de la fábrica.
Jason Clark: Parece que sabes cómo saberlo con tus hijos, ¿verdad? Puedes empezar a verlos y ya puedes ver sus talentos y habilidades. Entonces tengo a mi hijo de cuatro años, él es el constructor, ¿no? Él es el único que simplemente construye estos enormes sets de LEGO, de cuatro, y solo por su cuenta, simplemente se concentra en ellos y construye cosas en el jardín.
Matthew McCormack: Yo también tengo uno que es igual. Es curioso que a una edad muy temprana puedas ver exactamente esos mismos rasgos que mis padres me dijeron: "Lo hicimos, ¿verdad?" Y sí, también es interesante. Lo sé desde los 13 años, pero supe desde que él era joven que iba a ser ingeniero. Simplemente lo sabía.
Jason Clark: Lo mismo, ¿verdad? Mecánico, práctico, algún tipo de ingeniero también. El otro es más bien un científico. Quiere mezclar productos químicos y otras cosas, ¿verdad? Y luego, la última pregunta rápida es el mejor consejo si alguien lo llama y es CISO por primera vez.
Matthew McCormack: Y este es un consejo que doy, al igual que usted, me enorgullezco de haber ayudado a hacer crecer a muchas personas que ahora ocupan puestos de CISO. Y una de las cosas que siempre les doy es: "Estás en tu trabajo porque eres inteligente". Las personas con las que estás sentado en esa sala para reunirte están en sus trabajos porque son inteligentes. No eres la persona más inteligente de la sala. Siga los consejos de otras personas en la sala. Y la seguridad es una disciplina colaborativa, ¿verdad? Necesitará trabajar con el CTO, el CIO, el CFO, el asesor general y todas estas diferentes disciplinas.
Matthew McCormack: Entonces aprende a hablar sus idiomas, ¿verdad? Aprende a hablar abogado. Aprenda a redactar un caso de negocio porque si va a pedir millones de dólares para una iniciativa, el director financiero querrá saber cuál es su retorno. Comprenda que todas las personas con las que va a interactuar, todos sus compañeros, están en sus trabajos porque también son muy inteligentes. Así que hazlo sabiendo que eres una de muchas personas inteligentes, no eres la única persona inteligente".
Jason Clark: Me encanta. Creo que es un buen consejo. Una vez, en mi primera reunión de la junta directiva a los 26 años como CISO, entré y estaba nervioso. Yo estaba temblando. Y el presidente de esta compañía dijo: "Hijo, ven aquí" y dijo: "Escucha, aquí eres el experto, ¿verdad? Son tipos inteligentes, sí, pero están en los foros, pero no conocen lo cibernético como tú lo sabes. Eres el experto. Sea dueño de sus cosas, ¿verdad?" Y luego se volvió y dijo: "Y tengo otra cosa para ti". Y él dijo: "Aquí hay dos tomas de Johnnie Blue". Y él dijo: "Él será tu amigo". Vamos a volver. Empezarás en 15 minutos." Yo estaba como, "Está bien, eso funcionó". Y por cierto, nunca antes lo había tenido en mi vida.
Matthew McCormack: Y creo que todos tenemos historias. Y lo que descubrí es que normalmente tengo uno similar de cuando estaba en el IRS, donde estaba tratando de abogar por una nueva iniciativa cibernética y el jefe de la unidad de negocios con 26,000 personas, y dijo: "Oye, "Comencé la discusión con "Hijo", y lo que he descubierto en mi carrera es que cada vez que alguien comienza una discusión con "Hijo", generalmente va seguido de algún consejo, ¿verdad? Te dice algo que no sabes actualmente. Así que definitivamente he escuchado eso. Cada vez que alguien empieza, se acabó. Sucede menos ahora que me he hecho mayor. Pero cada vez que alguien iniciaba algo con "Hijo", sabía que lo que iba a seguir era algo que debía escuchar.
Jason Clark: Exactamente. Desde que eras niño, ¿verdad? Bueno, de todos modos, se nos acabó el tiempo, pero Matt, esto fue increíble. Muchas gracias. Esto fue divertido. Creo que hay muchas ideas geniales para todos y llegaron a conocerte aún mejor. Hagamos esto de nuevo y definitivamente volvamos y hablemos más sobre las cosas que podemos hacer juntos por la industria.
Matthew McCormack: Suena bien. Gracias, Jasón. Realmente lo aprecio. Fue muy divertido.
Rollo publicitario: el podcast de visionarios de la seguridad está impulsado por el equipo de Netskope. ¿Busca la plataforma de seguridad en la nube adecuada para permitir su viaje de transformación digital? Netskope Security Cloud le ayuda a conectar a los usuarios de forma segura y rápida directamente a Internet desde cualquier dispositivo a cualquier aplicación. Obtenga más información en Netskope.
Narrador: Gracias por escuchar a Security Visionaries. Tómate un momento para calificar y reseñar el programa y compartirlo con alguien que conozcas y que pueda disfrutarlo. Estén atentos a los episodios que se publican cada dos semanas y nos vemos en la próxima.
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