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This episode features Jason Clark leading a roundtable discussion with Shamla Naidoo, CISO, Head of Cloud Strategy at Netskope, Steve Riley, Field CTO at Netskope, Mike Anderson, Chief Digital & Information Officer at Netskope, and last but certainly not least, David Fairman, APAC CSO at Netskope.

On this episode, Shamla, Steve, Mike, and David all share their predictions for 2022 and beyond. You’ll hear predictions ranging from more mental health support for security leaders to the increase of companies measuring their carbon footprint, and everything in between. If you’re in security and are curious about what the future of the industry might look like, this is an episode you won’t want to miss.

What we’re going to see is CEOs creating programs to support security leaders’ mental health and wellbeing. This job is really hard and it continues to get harder. At this point, there’s very little in the way of mental health support for the security leaders.

—Shamla Naidoo, CISO, Head of Cloud Strategy at Netskope
Shamla Naidoo

 

Timestamps

*(3:23) - Prediction: Increase of Insider Threats*(18:26) - Prediction: Autonomous Cybersecurity & Removing Human Delay
*(5:20) - Prediction: Rebranding of Technology Specific Security Vendors*(25:02) - Prediction: APIs as a Growing Attack Surface Risk
*(9:21) - Prediction: Rise in Deep Fakes, Voice Cloning, & Misinformation*(33:54) - Prediction: The Risk of & Managing Machine Learning in the Future
*(15:08) - Prediction: Increase in Companies Measuring Their Carbon Footprint*(37:40) - Prediction: CEOs to Create More Programs to Support the Mental Health of Security Leaders

 

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On this episode

Shamla Naidoo
CISO, Head of Cloud Strategy at Netskope

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Shamla Naidoo

Shamla has spent 37 years in technology from an engineer to an executive, including 20 years as a CISO. With her deep technical and industry knowledge in the digital and cyber fields, she is sought after by public and private sectors, and is often invited to speak in venues around the world. She is fluent in technical, business and regulatory topics. Working and speaking in over twenty countries on six continents has helped her distinguish herself in overcoming cultural barriers.

Jason Clark
Chief Strategy and Marketing Officer at Netskope

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Jason Clark

Jason brings decades of experience building and executing successful strategic security programs to Netskope.

He was previously the chief security and strategy officer for Optiv, developing a comprehensive suite of solutions to help CXO executives enhance their security strategies and accelerate alignment of those strategies with the business. Prior to Optiv, Clark held a leadership role at Websense, where he was a driving force behind the company’s transformation into a provider of critical technology for chief information security officers (CISOs). In a prior role as CISO and vice president of infrastructure for Emerson Electric, Clark significantly decreased the company’s risk by developing and executing a successful security program for 140,000 employees across 1,500 locations. He was previously CISO for The New York Times, and has held security leadership and technical roles at EverBank, BB&T and the U.S. Army.

Steve Riley
Field CTO at Netskope

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Steve Riley

Experienced information technology professional with several advisory and consultative roles among the vendor, end user, and analyst arenas. Specialties include security architecture/design, policy/process, and compliance, both on-premises and in the cloud. Accomplished communicator across business and technical disciplines with many years of public speaking experience. Recognized for ability to bring novel understandings to complex technical topics. Regularly engages audiences of all types, from business executives to technical teams, in customer meetings and at conferences around the world. His passions induce: Building resilient processes and systems that can withstand attack, Creating and evolving security practices that work in cloud computing deployments, Discovering ways for information security to enable and enhance the business, and Producing evidence to convert doubters into supporters.

Mike Anderson
Chief Digital & Information Officer at Netskope

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Mike Anderson

Mike Anderson serves as Chief Digital and Information Officer for Netskope. Over the past 25 years, he has built and led high-performing teams across various disciplines, including sales, operations, business development, and information technology. He joined Netskope from Schneider Electric, a global fortune 500 company, serving as SVP, CIO and Digital Leader for North America. In 2020, Constellation Research named him a member of the Business Transformation 150, an elite list that recognizes the top global executives leading business transformation efforts in their organizations. The National Diversity Council also recognized him as a Top 50 CIO for diversity and inclusion in 2020 and 2021. Before Schneider Electric, Mike served as CIO for CROSSMARK, where he digitally transformed the business capabilities for the 40,000 employee service provider to the retail and consumer goods industry. Also, he has held executive leadership roles at Enterprise Mobile, a Microsoft joint venture that is now part of Honeywell, Insight, Software Spectrum, and InVerge, a web services pioneer he co-founded in 1999. Mike serves on numerous technology and industry advisory boards and volunteers his time working with nonprofits focused on mental health and suicide prevention and those that benefit the development of our future workforce in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics.

David Fairman
APAC CSO at Netskope

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David Fairman

David is a highly experienced professional in the Security & Financial Crime disciplines covering Cyber Security, Fraud and Financial Crime, Intelligence, Business Continuity, Physical Security and Operational Risk. David has worked for, and consulted to, several large financial institutions and Fortune 500 companies, across the UK & EU, North America and APAC. David is a passionate leader in Cyber Security and Financial Crime and has been actively involved in founding several industry alliances and expert groups, holding Board positions, across multiple regions with the aim of making it safer to do business and transact in the digital world. David has been recognised as one of the Top CISOs to know, is a published author and adjunct professor. A core capability of David’s is his ability to understand the operational risks arising from digital commerce and translate these into strategic actions encompassing technological solutions and organisational capability maturity, in order to transform organisations abilities to mange all aspects of cyber and digital risk. David’s current focus is driving collaboration and innovation across the industry to address current and emerging threats prevalent with digital risk and improve the cyber resiliency and literacy in the community.

Shamla Naidoo

Shamla has spent 37 years in technology from an engineer to an executive, including 20 years as a CISO. With her deep technical and industry knowledge in the digital and cyber fields, she is sought after by public and private sectors, and is often invited to speak in venues around the world. She is fluent in technical, business and regulatory topics. Working and speaking in over twenty countries on six continents has helped her distinguish herself in overcoming cultural barriers.

Jason Clark

Jason brings decades of experience building and executing successful strategic security programs to Netskope.

He was previously the chief security and strategy officer for Optiv, developing a comprehensive suite of solutions to help CXO executives enhance their security strategies and accelerate alignment of those strategies with the business. Prior to Optiv, Clark held a leadership role at Websense, where he was a driving force behind the company’s transformation into a provider of critical technology for chief information security officers (CISOs). In a prior role as CISO and vice president of infrastructure for Emerson Electric, Clark significantly decreased the company’s risk by developing and executing a successful security program for 140,000 employees across 1,500 locations. He was previously CISO for The New York Times, and has held security leadership and technical roles at EverBank, BB&T and the U.S. Army.

Steve Riley

Experienced information technology professional with several advisory and consultative roles among the vendor, end user, and analyst arenas. Specialties include security architecture/design, policy/process, and compliance, both on-premises and in the cloud. Accomplished communicator across business and technical disciplines with many years of public speaking experience. Recognized for ability to bring novel understandings to complex technical topics. Regularly engages audiences of all types, from business executives to technical teams, in customer meetings and at conferences around the world. His passions induce: Building resilient processes and systems that can withstand attack, Creating and evolving security practices that work in cloud computing deployments, Discovering ways for information security to enable and enhance the business, and Producing evidence to convert doubters into supporters.

Mike Anderson

Mike Anderson serves as Chief Digital and Information Officer for Netskope. Over the past 25 years, he has built and led high-performing teams across various disciplines, including sales, operations, business development, and information technology. He joined Netskope from Schneider Electric, a global fortune 500 company, serving as SVP, CIO and Digital Leader for North America. In 2020, Constellation Research named him a member of the Business Transformation 150, an elite list that recognizes the top global executives leading business transformation efforts in their organizations. The National Diversity Council also recognized him as a Top 50 CIO for diversity and inclusion in 2020 and 2021. Before Schneider Electric, Mike served as CIO for CROSSMARK, where he digitally transformed the business capabilities for the 40,000 employee service provider to the retail and consumer goods industry. Also, he has held executive leadership roles at Enterprise Mobile, a Microsoft joint venture that is now part of Honeywell, Insight, Software Spectrum, and InVerge, a web services pioneer he co-founded in 1999. Mike serves on numerous technology and industry advisory boards and volunteers his time working with nonprofits focused on mental health and suicide prevention and those that benefit the development of our future workforce in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics.

David Fairman

David is a highly experienced professional in the Security & Financial Crime disciplines covering Cyber Security, Fraud and Financial Crime, Intelligence, Business Continuity, Physical Security and Operational Risk. David has worked for, and consulted to, several large financial institutions and Fortune 500 companies, across the UK & EU, North America and APAC. David is a passionate leader in Cyber Security and Financial Crime and has been actively involved in founding several industry alliances and expert groups, holding Board positions, across multiple regions with the aim of making it safer to do business and transact in the digital world. David has been recognised as one of the Top CISOs to know, is a published author and adjunct professor. A core capability of David’s is his ability to understand the operational risks arising from digital commerce and translate these into strategic actions encompassing technological solutions and organisational capability maturity, in order to transform organisations abilities to mange all aspects of cyber and digital risk. David’s current focus is driving collaboration and innovation across the industry to address current and emerging threats prevalent with digital risk and improve the cyber resiliency and literacy in the community.

Episode transcript

Open for transcript

Shamla Naidoo: This job is really hard and it continues to get harder. But at this point, there's very little in the way of mental health support for the security leaders and for the security teams. So I really think that CEOs are going to start to double down on not just innovating for the business but also helping the CISOs to create both innovation for security, giving them the tools, the technology and the solutions to help them do their jobs better. But also supporting that with mental health and wellness support programs.

Producer: Hello, and welcome to Security Visionaries hosted by Jason Clark, CSO at Netskope. You just heard from one of today's guests, Shamla Naidoo, Head of Cloud Strategy and Innovation at Netskope. In this episode, Shamla is also joined by Steve Riley, Field CTO at Netskope, Mike Anderson, Chief Digital and Information Officer at Netskope and last but certainly not least, David Fairman, APAC CSO at Netskope.

Producer: As we welcome the New Year with open arms, security leaders around the world are continuing to try and stay five steps ahead of bad actors in the space. To kick off 2022, we brought together some of the sharpest leaders in the industry to share what predictions are top of mind on their risk radars. We hope you enjoy this round table discussion and from everyone at Netskope, we want to wish you a happy and healthy New Year.

Sponsor: The Security Visionaries podcast is powered by the team at Netskope. Netskope is the SASE leader, offering everything you need to provide a fast data centric and Cloud Smart user experience at the speed of business today. Learn more at N-E-T-S-K-O-P-E.com

Producer: Without further ado, please enjoy episode seven of Security Visionaries with your host, Jason Clark.

Jason Clark: Welcome to Security Visionaries. I am your host, Jason Clark CSO at Netskope. And today I'm joined by some of the best experts in the industry and we're going to be talking about predictions and it's always a big topic this time of year. But we're going to try and bring to light some of these that we all need to be paying attention to for 2022 and beyond. First guest is, Steve Riley, great to have you here. How are you doing?

Steve Riley: Thanks, Jason. How about yourself?

Jason Clark: Doing super fantastic. And Dave Fairman, how are you?

David Fairman: Hey, Jason, good to be here. Thanks for including me in your conversation this week. I'm doing well, mate. I'm doing really well. I'm looking forward to the Christmas and New Year break.

Jason Clark: What time is it in Australia right now?

David Fairman: 2:00 AM in the morning. So I'm hoping my responses to this conversation will be eloquent considering the time.

Jason Clark: Yeah. Thanks for staying up for us. It'll be awesome.

David Fairman: Oh, good man.

Jason Clark: And Shamla, how are you?

Shamla Naidoo: Hey, Jason, thank you so much for including me in this fantastic conversation. I'm looking forward to it.

Jason Clark: Awesome. And Mike?

Mike Anderson: Hey, good morning. It's great to be here, looking forward to hearing some great predictions this morning on this podcast.

Jason Clark : Well, perfect. Well, let's keep it lively and really just bring anything up you want to and comment on any of these as we go through, just so we'll make it fun for the audience. But again, everybody here as you'll see and you can look up, they're all amazing experts in the industry that I've known for a very long time. So the first thing I wanted to start off with is that, it's kind of a prediction but it's also very obvious. So I kind of call it a little bit of a softball but I bring it up because I'm worried not everybody's thinking about it. And that is that as we return to work and meaning, everybody was working from home and then your company says, "It's time to come back in the office three days a week or five days a week." And we're already starting to see this. A significant amount of people have either A, already moved but didn't tell their employer or B, are deciding, you know what? I like working from home and don't want to go back to the office. And with that, we're going to see a lot of attrition and turnover and that comes with insider threat. And when somebody decides to change jobs, they see their work product as their own. And when we see as, increase of over a 10X the downloads of information that they have touched or worked on. It could be anything from somebody that's on their sales to team, downloading all their customer lists so that they can take it to their next place. So just something that every security team should be thinking of, not just thinking about the external threats. So anybody have any thoughts on that one?

David Fairman: No, I think that's a fair prediction. And we're talking about this is going to be the new era of resignation and people leaving the organization as well. I think we're going to probably see a little bit more of a rise in that activity at the moment. Now, I know we are talking about it here in region.

Jason Clark: Yeah, I think that the place that catches people a little bit blind is just the use of really of all the personal apps, all the storage apps, et cetera. And a lot of organizations aren't inserting that information, that traffic into their existing insider threat processes. So I think that's the place I really recommend people look into. So to Shamla, I wanted to start with you and you have a long shot prediction around technology specific security vendors, are going to redefine, rebrand themselves as SSE vendors. Can you unpack that prediction and share your thoughts?

Shamla Naidoo: Yes, absolutely. If you look out there today Jason, most of the cyber security vendors who provide products or services or tools are rebranding themselves as Secure Services Edge vendors and they're really pushing this idea of zero trust. And so what you have is, everyone who's doing things like securing or protecting files, protecting servers, protecting networks, acting as gateways, acting as data leak prevention tools. Everyone is branding themselves as a zero trust vendor securing the edge. And what that is doing, I think is going to create an enormous growing burden for the CISO, because now we've shifted the burden on what we actually do to this very generic term. And we are leaving it up to the consumer or the decision makers to determine whether or not these solutions address strategic gaps. Which gaps they address? What are the pros and cons? We also leaving it up to the consumer to decide, which ones they need versus which ones they can do without? And I feel like that is unfair to the industry because if everyone says they're zero trust vendor and there's no strategic or industry definition for what is included in zero trust and where is the edge, that just makes the job of the CISO much, much harder. Because really when you think about it, where is this edge that these SSE vendors are going to be addressing? It's everywhere. It's wherever we conduct transactions, it's wherever we conduct business. So the edge basically is everywhere. And we know from experience that not every provider, not every vendor can actually address all of the issues in those environments. And so that's why I think that as companies rebrand themselves, it's just going to increase the burden on the CISO.

Jason Clark: You know what? I think same thing with SASE. As soon as SASE came out you started seeing, there's now 50 SASE companies. And everybody's just calling themselves SASE or they started just buying companies but with no integration and then saying, "Hey, we have all the parts and they all work together." And they really don't. But Steve you'd recently published something, Dave, you as well around zero trust and some good articles. Any additional thoughts on Shamla's prediction?

Steve Riley: Yeah, I think it's important to remember what these topics are. SASE is intended to be an architecture and zero trust is intended to be a new way of thinking about assessing the trustworthiness of an interaction. Zero is a starting point, but ultimately there has to be some level of trust for any two entities to interact. And we don't want to just assume that you have full access to everything because of what your IP address is. And I really love the way that vendors who brought this are moving more toward a continuous adaptive trust approach, where you look at all these contextual signals and determine just how much access to grant, for just that interaction, for just that amount of time.

Jason Clark: Yeah, I agree, and trust isn't binary. It's not on or off. And I think that a lot of those vendors that Shamla mentioned that they kind of still view that zero trust is like an ACL, that trust is you either have it or you don't. And a lot of vendors you ask them to define what zero trust even means and you're going to get different answers for most of them as well. So I think there it is, we are hurting the industry, there's a lot of confusion. David, so you had an interesting prediction around deepfake, and voice cloning and misinformation. So why is this a prediction that you're considering and how should users and companies be thinking about protecting themselves?

David Fairman: Well, look, I think even this year, we started to see the rise of deepfake and probably even in the preceding year, the rise of deepfake as a tool for various nefarious reasons. Whether it was political influence or whether it was for increasing fraud and scams, social media social engineering for supporting social engineering attacks, et cetera. There was a couple of really good events that happened this year with regards to an energy company, which they had a fraud committed and the tool that was used to support that fraud was deepfake. And there was another unsuccessful attack on a technology company using the same capability. I think what we're starting to see now, is the fraud elements, whether it's identity fraud, business email compromise. Sorry, not business email compromise but sort of scams, and executives of social engineering and pressure put on employees to act under pressure. I think we're starting to see that now. I think that deepfake is something that helps adversaries, threat actors, fraudsters execute on those attacks. Particularly, when you think about scams and sort of those executive pressure type techniques that we see. We're also starting to see application fraud start to be... Or deepfake be seen as a vector to increase the success of the application fraud. We hear of things of ghost attacks or ghost fakes, which are purporting to effectively taking over the identities of people who are deceased and that has started. We're seeing a rise in financial crime in the financial crime world. So look, I think we started to see that in the past couple of years. I think it's only going to increase as we move into 2022 and into 2023. Deepfake technology is becoming more and more sophisticated, more and more accurate. I think it's hard for organizations to combat against that. You ask about how should organizations be thinking about this? What should they be doing to try and prevent that? Funnily enough, it comes back if you think about the fraud angle of this. It does come back to some of the basics of fraud prevention, things about validating that you know who you're talking to or who you are transacting with. Use mechanisms so that you are doing that authentication, all that validation out of band. Just don't trust what you see through an audio file as you talking to someone that you think you are talking to. How do you validate that training and awareness of your people? There's certain cues and signals that you can identify when you look at deepfake videos to identify those sorts of fraudulent video images or audio files. So there's a number of different things there. I think we're going to start to see... I mean, we basically saw it in the US elections around political influence with fake news. We've seen all of that. I think it's only going to grow. And I think social adversaries are going to start to really embrace this more so than they have today in terms of social engineering capability, which is again, going to lead to substantiative cyber attacks.

Jason Clark: A good example of the executive pressure, we actually just saw this, I got alerted a couple weeks ago that a person in Europe got a phone call, and a text message and a phone call. And it was them acting like they are a CEO, telling this person to go take an action, "Immediately, urgent, I need you to take this action." And the person's kind of like, "Okay, well, will jump on a call." "Hey, I don't have time to jump on a call." And his response was, "Well, what's my favorite soccer team?" Or what's my favorite hockey team? And immediately the conversation went dead. But at first admittedly, this person was like, "Oh, I really thought he need me to go do that. I thought it was a weird request but I was ready to step into action." So the thinking and the awareness training kicked in and worked and we set to continue to do a better job of that.

David Fairman: That's exactly what happened in the energy attack and that's successful. I think that led to about a 236,000 US Dollar fraud. So it will be there and we'll see more of it and I think proceeding those social engineering attacks. And I think political influence, and think about what that means not just... You talk about political influence but just from an influencing perspective. So think about how you can not just drive society or a subset of our community down a certain path. Think about how that could cause divide on an organization, on a private institution. If there was deepfake being used to send messages executives, around culture or around activity that we're doing, we could do it on a much smaller scale and we could start to influence and destabilize organizations. So maybe when it comes to destabilization of organizations that's the motivation for threat adversaries. I think we'll see a rise in that because it's just a tool to drive that lack of trust in the environment.

Jason Clark: I think it's a great one, spot on. Steve? So another prediction that you've been talking about is organizations across the global start to measure their carbon footprint in relation to IT and their data centers. How likely is this? What percentage of organizations do you think will do this?

Steve Riley: I think it's totally likely and it's going to affect 100% of organizations out there. We know that priorities from investors and stakeholders and forthcoming regulatory requirements are going to push organizations to improve the methods and processes they use to account for their carbon footprint. And I see that there's two dimensions here. There's a security dimension and infrastructure dimension. In the infrastructure dimension, folks are going to think, "What do I do in my data centers? How about moving them all to where you can get free air cooling like Iceland?" Open the windows, get free air cooling in your data center. Other things, if you can't pick up your data center to move, you could look at things like renewable energy credits, onsite generation technologies like cogeneration that combine cooling and power. Just make sure that you're getting good utilization out of the hardware that you have, is another way of reducing overall power consumption. And then for water specifically, I've seen instances of where orgs have moved from potable water from Maine's to using gray water sources as a way of reducing costs. Now that's for people who want to have on-premises data centers still. I would argue that maybe migrating to the cloud is another way of getting close to net zero emissions. The cloud providers have pretty strong financial incentives to develop energy efficient data centers. And they run with effectiveness that are much more so than what a typical organization might be able to do and they've got programs in place to have their operations that are carbon neutral. And even more so now, you can see like from Azure and GCP and AWS, where they publish the emissions from their data centers now. And organizations moving to the cloud could say, "Hey, we've reduced our emissions by going out this way." Now, I said there is a security dimension too. And it's interesting because I've seen some instances of where security risks are acquiring climate change dimensions. I'll give you a couple of examples, hacktivists. So these are attackers motivated by issues. They're targeting large enterprises with carbon footprints. So if you're a huge emitter, someone's going to come after you. And this is a brand new risk because this is just an enterprise doing business as usual but now they're getting attacked for some reason that they may find very difficult to understand why. But also think about how many of us work now. We're all distributed, we're at home and we don't have business continuity capabilities in our home offices. So a weather event could actually take a lot of home workers offline. So change and sustainability are part of boardroom and share order conversations now. So it's time to start thinking about this.

Jason Clark: I think it's a good one Steve. I think a lot of listeners are probably like, "Oh, you know what? I hadn't really put that on my risk radar yet but let me write that one down because it is something that's probably going to come up at some point and we need to already be thinking about it." So Mike, I know you had some thoughts around autonomous cybersecurity and where you remove the human delay and policy management. Why is this a top of mind prediction for us going forward?

Mike Anderson: When you think about any kind of technology, if you think about traditional plan, build, run concepts, there's a lot of focus that's been put traditionally on how do you reduce the run cost of any IT solution? So when we think about cybersecurity, the run is really when you get into security operations. And there's two reasons why I feel like this prediction will start to play out. One, is the actors get more and more sophisticated. Our risk increases based on the delay it takes for us to implement policy within our environments. So whether that policy is keeping people from going somewhere or going the wrong places or if it's coaching people to make other decisions in the moment. The faster we can get those policies instrumented in our environments, the quicker we can respond to the threats that are happening. And the challenge we've also got is the skill gap, especially in cybersecurity. And so trying to hire, retain people in security operation that's going to be problematic and we've already seen that. And so what happens in a lot of organizations is, you've got the person that is maintaining the platform, especially medium enterprises. That's maintaining the platform, doing the policy management, then that person leaves. So then there's this delay between when you've got policies being created. Now there's this air gap before the new person comes in, they get trained up and start administering the solution. And so just like we've seen in IT operations, where we've seen AIOps become kind of the new buzzword, that's going to move its way over into cybersecurity. And so it's going to help address both that skill gap problem and the problem we have around, what happens when people leave and who picks up the keys to the car and keeps running? And at the same time, helping us respond to threats more quickly. And so that's the piece. And I think what we're going to see first is more of, kind of your traditional, if we look at the sales automation vendors like Salesforce, where they predicted the next best action you should take from a sales standpoint. We have to first establish a trust. We have to know that if I'm going to turn on autonomous cybersecurity, I have to first trust the decision making process that's going into it. And so I think what we're going to see as a first step is, models that essentially suggest kind of here's policies we should create. And get a person comfortable enough to say, "You know what? 99% of the time I just click okay and just approve it." And that builds that trust level where someone says, "I'll go ahead and turn on that autonomous mode." And so I think we're going to see this multi-step journey but I think in the next three to five years, we're really going to start to see the autonomous cybersecurity being used as a way to reduce the run costs. And the other aspect is just financial. I talk to a lot of my peers in the industry and they say, "Look, my CFO is asking me, when do we get to a point where we can say a certain percentage of our revenue is going to go into cybersecurity?" And so we're going to see the same pressures that we've seen on IT and technology and honestly, every function in the company. We're going to start seeing those same pressures on security to say, "What is good enough?" And so when we get to that point, we're going to see optimization of our security stack and those tools we use. Automation is a way to, again, reduce that run cost so I can reinvest in more of my strategic priorities to head off the new threats like, how AI may be used by some of the bad actors?

Jason Clark: Yeah, I'm curious from the team, is any of you already seen autonomous cybersecurity in either the software supply chain or in infrastructure security or cloud security in any way?

Shamla Naidoo: So Jason, let me try to address that. There's a reason why you seeing all these shaking heads, where people are saying, "We haven't seen this." It's because so much of the responsibility for making those kinds of decisions falls on the security leaders. And given how personal the failure and the outcomes are, it's hardly any surprise that we not willing to let machines make these decisions. We don't just put one layer of humans to help make the decisions. We put multiple layers because of the fear of failure. And the fact is in machine learning and artificial intelligence algorithms, if you don't have some appetite for failure at the beginning for allowing self learning to get better and to improve, you're just not going to be successful. So the point is that we are not going to see autonomous security until we give security leaders a little bit of leeway to make mistakes and allow the machines to make some mistakes early on while we teach and learn and make better automated decisions.

Mike Anderson: Essentially, I'd add on, earlier we were talking about zero trust and as we move away, I think Steve, you and I had this conversation before around the move from implicit trust to explicit trust, and from trust but verify to verify then trust. I think the same thing happens as we think about autonomous. That verification is, how do I know that it's going to make the right decision? And then once I know, then I can trust it. So I think it becomes pervasive as we think about the mindset. I tell a lot of people when they talk about zero trust, first thing I say, it's not a product or a destination because it's a journey. It's just like an agile mindset. It's a zero trust mindset, which is really shifting from, I'm going to verify then trust in the things I do. And the more I know about you, the more I'm going to trust you. And I think going back on that conversation from earlier, zero trust requires a, say, teamwork makes a dream work, right? So how do we get all solutions within our environments working together to help us understand as much as we can about a person or entity so that we can make the right decisions? And so I think that mindset becomes part of that AI journey as well for how we can move towards that autonomous cybersecurity model.

Jason Clark: Yeah, you kind of have to bring it all together. You have to have a brain of your cybersecurity program before you can start applying that and right now there's so much disparate types of systems. I always use the analogy that we have like a disconnected nervous system. The sense of smell, and the sense of feel and sense of seeing are not connected, other than maybe in a SIM, which is memory versus the frontal lobe. So I think we have a lot of work to do, to be able to connect all these things together, which I think that's the intent with SSE and with zero trust. It's a journey to get these things connected so we can react and defend faster. And another topic that you all were talking about is APIs. And I see there are a lot of conversation around SAS being the fastest growing risk for organizations. And there's a lot of conversations around mobile